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Phil McDade

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Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2007, 01:14:12 PM »
Adam:

Well, it's not much of a walkback, or retrace, or however one wants to characterize it. But the design of the hole, in relation to the next tee, does force some kind of walk back toward the 4th tee and then sideways to the 5th tee. The (from the golfer's perspective) right-side bunker on the 4th green really does make the golfer either go back down the hill toward the tee, or loop all the way around the backside of the green (which is angled away from the 5th tee) and walk even further to the 5th tee. Most golfers, myself included, tend to take the shorter route directly back toward the 4th tee, even with golfers waiting there to hit, because it's the quickest way to get to the 5th tee (looping around the long way eventually puts you in the path of even a slight mis-hit right on 4.)

I don't necessarily view this as a design flaw. One of the things I like about Lawsonia is that it doesn't have too many long walks between green and tee, yet it has few places where that walk might interfere with pace of play. The 4-5 hole swing is about the only place it does.




JohnV

Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2007, 01:28:21 PM »
Keeping to the Oregon theme, Oregon Golf Club has a tough walk back.  The 4th hole is a drop shot par 3.  After finishing play of it, the player has to walk back up the hill to the 5th tee which is a par 5 playing in almost the same direction and from right next to the 4th tee.

Seattle Golf Club also has one.  I may have the hole numbers wrong, but as I recall 10 is a par 4 that plays to the base of a hill.  The player walks back to 11 which is a par 3 going in the same direction.  Then the player climbs the hill for #12.

Today's architects probably don't care as much about walk backs since so few people walk these days.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2007, 01:38:28 PM »
Kalen's thread on Johnny Miller's Thanksgiving Point showed that such a hole exists there. sorry I can't find the thread. It appears quite obvious that it was done to make a par 3 play across the river. I think there were better choices to be made that would have made a better course. I believe Alister would have been appalled. The other participants of the thread recommended I go play easy goat tracks especially since I admitted to laying up on a 130 yard par 3 on my home course. Happy to say that my layup shot got me a birdie this year in the second round of the club championship, and it does take double bogey or worse out of the equation.

BTW, I don't recommend Mallard Creek. As a walker, I was quite dismayed to have to walk back up the hill.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 01:40:10 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2007, 02:29:57 PM »
Wayne,
I think this is actually the weakest feature of my club - French Creek (Hanse - PA).  Non-optimal routing, something that almost certainly couldn't have been helped given the landforms and the wetlands to be protected by law.

The walk back from 15 green to 16 tee is a retrace of the walk from 11 tee to fairway.  On a hot day like you had in STL, it can be really tiring - physicaly and emotionally.  


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2007, 02:42:33 PM »
Galloway has that feature and I went out without a caddie after not having played the course for about 2 years and got lost.  Finally bumped into another group and they pointed us to the next tee - I think it is from 4 to 5.  

MBL

Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2007, 03:00:30 PM »
Wayne,

I'm sorry that you did not enjoy your round more, but the weather here in StL is often oppressive and you did catch us in particularly furnace-like conditions.

As for #16, many feel it to be an excellent example of a reverse Redan.  Originally, the 17th tee box(es) were located approximately even with the front of 16 green (the 17 tees have been pulled back to extend the hole).  And although an atypical green-to-tee jaunt compared to the rest of the course, that walk from 16 to 17 was not originally as challenging as it is today.  Many folks think that the architect did a fairly decent job on this piece of property.

Btw, is your issue with 18 (the course's version of The Alps hole) the blind shot factor?  

I hope that you can re-visit during more temperate weather,

-M. Lewis
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 03:03:02 PM by Mark Lewis »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2007, 04:58:09 PM »
Kalen's thread on Johnny Miller's Thanksgiving Point showed that such a hole exists there. sorry I can't find the thread. It appears quite obvious that it was done to make a par 3 play across the river. I think there were better choices to be made that would have made a better course. I believe Alister would have been appalled. The other participants of the thread recommended I go play easy goat tracks especially since I admitted to laying up on a 130 yard par 3 on my home course. Happy to say that my layup shot got me a birdie this year in the second round of the club championship, and it does take double bogey or worse out of the equation.

BTW, I don't recommend Mallard Creek. As a walker, I was quite dismayed to have to walk back up the hill.


Scott,

You are correct this does exist at Thanksgiving Point.  It does make for a very awkward transition, and when walking the course, the walk to the 8th tee after you play the 7th is over 300 yards.

Garland,

While we hashed this out once already, I'm not sure why you have your knickers in a twist after all this time.  There is a kids tee on the other side of the river that you could play from..  :D ;) ;D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 04:58:57 PM by Kalen Braley »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2007, 06:05:42 PM »
What about walk backs where it's so convenient to just stop, hit your tee shot on the next hole, and then continue playing the one you are on as you walk by the next tee?

Our new 15th/16th at Pensacola CC are a bit like that.  The 16th tee is about 100-120 yards back in the direction you just came from.  I haven't seen anybody stop and tee off on 16 yet but maybe because there's enough play when I'm out there that it's not practical.  And also because quite a bit of our play down here at this time of the year is cart-aided.

But maybe next winter!  ;D

I know, I know, this would violate the stipulated round rule and everybody would be DQ'd.  So sue me.  ;)

Another old example - any of the old timers ever play this one? - was #4 on the original Newnan (GA) CC.  They tore it up 30 years ago.  You played across a pond to an elevated green on a 175 yard par 3 #4.  On the way to the green you walked right by the 5th tee, the par 5 that followed.  Many times we would just slow down, pop the tee shot down #5, finish playing #4 and head down the 5th fairway.

Not exactly kosher but it does save on the 'retraced footsteps.'

wsmorrison

Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2007, 09:09:07 PM »
Mark and Bill S,

Let me be clear about this.  I had a wonderful time at SLCC, weather not withstanding.  The membership and professional staff were very accomodating (my home club made the arrangements for us to pay to play) and I enjoyed my day immensely.  My brother and I walked and carried and it was tough to do.  There was hardly any wind and it was oppressively hot.  This may have made the walk back from 16 green to 17 tee more of a burden then it may have been at other times and temperatures, but it in no way ruined my day.  I was thrilled to be on such an Old Guard course as SLCC.

I was trying to think of how that corner area of 16, 17 and 18 tee could have been better routed.  I wasn't sure if the tennis or squash facilities (or whatever that is at that end) caused a change.  I imagined if the 17th tee was near the 16th green that it required the 17th to be a par 3 (a second set of back to back par 3s) or a very short par 4.  I couldn't imagine it a short par 4 as it is a short par 4 as it is today (<390 yards).

In isolation, I find the retracing a very poor routing feature.  Given the average quality of the 17th and a better but not great 18th, I wondered what the architect (CBM) was thinking.

Teeing 2 balls at once is an interesting change of pace but not very practical on a day to day basis although I gather there isn't a lot of play at SLCC.

As for the quality of the 18th, I don't mind blind shots at all.  In fact I kind of like them.  I don't like the artificiality of the fronting bunker and mound.  The bunker shot isn't that difficult these days with 60* wedges and better equipment.  It just looks so forced on a hole with tremendous natural featurs (elevation change and fairway contouring).

While the course conditions were not very good, that didn't bother me at all.  I know the climate demands are problematic.  Wit that in mind, I think the greens should have been a bit slower and longer.  They were quicker than other courses in SL but patchy and stressed.

Hey, I'd love to return and study the course some more.  In no way do I want to leave the impression that I was not glad to be there, thankful for the privilege nor disappointed.  It is an early great course and I was fascinated by it.  I was also a bit perplexed.  I think the short par 4s and the par 3s excellent though I am not in favor of the template design model.  Yet there are characteristics of Macdonald, Raynor and Banks courses that I find disappointing.  I do not like flat bottom sand bunkers with steep grass faces.  The influence of this style in the midwest is significant.  Other courses in the area have imitated that style.  With a course like SLCC that is on such great land, a more natural style would be more interesting to me.  I know I am often in the minority in this way of thinking.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2007, 10:52:47 PM »
Wayne,

At Eastmoreland in Portland there is a pleasant retracing on the H. Chandler Egan layout. At the sixth hole (par 5) you leave your bag under the trees on the left side of the hole at about 100 yards out and walk up with your putter (and wedge if needed). When you return to your bag, you drop off the putter and pull the driver as you walk back to the 7th tee. You tee off and walk back the 100 yards to your bag and play on. For some reason the pace is nice and really does not feel forced.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Retracing your steps
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2007, 12:12:28 PM »
I can't remember which hole it is at Royal New Kent -- the par-3 on the back, maybe #12 -- anyway, after #11 you take a path through the woods and back to the tee, play the hole, then come backwards off the green and take that same path backwards to the next tee -- #13 tee is right behind #11 green.  I don't know if they were going to have a par-3 somewhere else and it got shot down for environmental reasons and this one was tacked into the routing.


You have a good memory!  I played RNK recently and it is #12, a very interesting par 3.  The green is something like 80 yards deep.  For those that want to take a peek of this hole, I snapped a few shots and have them here:  http://tinyurl.com/yukrwx

Another example of retracing your steps would be #15 at McCall outside of Philly in Upper Darby.  It is a par 3 where I believe you have to come all the way back past #14 green and #15 tee to get to the next hole.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2007, 12:53:58 PM »
Could a course legally have a player tee off on both holes at the same time?

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routings that force you to retrace your steps
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2007, 01:27:14 PM »
Could a course legally have a player tee off on both holes at the same time?

It could never be allowed for a tournament.  But when there are not more than a dozen golfers on the course, it was never any problem walking to #17 tee right after hitting the tee shots on #16 at St. Louis C.C.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

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