[John Kavanaugh]

Ant,

Here is a picture of how 6 green looked for the Senior Am...I am not an expert but it is what I define as dead.  I also am not saying it was Dan's fault.  This green is now fine but two others are dead by my definition.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Clearly, the whole green ain't dead!

For anyone on the site who critiques a gca for designing mellower greens to assist maintenance, please note that it is entirely the wild contours, side slopes and high spots that are brown.  

While most courses post their professional photography soon after opening day, in my mind, I know a course is going to go through some tough weather stretches, including member complaints.  So, were the great contours worth it in the design if they suffer in bad years for growing grass? Probably yes at 2% of the courses in the country, probably no at 98% of the courses in the country.

Not saying VN shouldn't have done the contours, just that they should have expected the problems in that design feature.

John, do you know if you have sub air?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

That picture was taken by the super at the best possible angle.  The entire green was dead.  We have sub-air under every green on the course.  It is no longer used because our young super believes it is an failed technology.  The sad thing is that the guy who now is selling us fans is also from the sub-air company so he is gigging the ownership twice.

My earlier point about the July 2nd punching was that it could have simply been delayed until after the 4th.  It was not an emergency situation.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff...I was typing the same time you were.....
  Interesting....the areas that are weak are on the severe slopes....the hardest place to grow/keep grass alive.
  John-I'm not saying that Dan hasn't made any questionable decisions-For that, I have no idea. But I am sure of one thing-Within his abilities, he's doing what's best for the turf. Here is a link on fans...you even started it...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=29289;start=msg565853#msg565853
What were the reasons that the former superintendent left?(The super that grew it in.)
  As for the subair-I'd love to have it-what a tool to utilize! Can't be that bad if TPC Sawgrass just put it in....It's one of the best things for turfgrass right now.
 
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Angle? If he didn't colorize the turf green, then its alive....

There are some supers who have been dissapointed with the fans, or used them primarily to suck moisture out when too wet rather than pump cool air in.

IMHO, the microclimate is 95% determinant of whether a green struggles.  Sub Air or anything else is at best 5% of the solution, although that green site doesn't look too tree'd from the pic. It must be sitting low or something else where air movement is bad.

My point about the slopes is that if the micro climate is bad, the slopes - particluarly on the rolling edges where mowers pass every day in the same direction are the first to go since they are under a lot more stress.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a pic of six green today...The severe slopes are fine just as they were every year before.  Check out the pic on Ran's profile if you like.  Now we have two other greens that are dying that don't have severe slope and the only answer seems to be is to throw more money at fans.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Angle? If he didn't colorize the turf green, then its alive....

There are some supers who have been dissapointed with the fans, or used them primarily to suck moisture out when too wet rather than pump cool air in.

IMHO, the microclimate is 95% determinant of whether a green struggles.  Sub Air or anything else is at best 5% of the solution, although that green site doesn't look too tree'd from the pic. It must be sitting low or something else where air movement is bad.

My point about the slopes is that if the micro climate is bad, the slopes - particluarly on the rolling edges where mowers pass every day in the same direction are the first to go since they are under a lot more stress.

Jeff,

Is dead too strong a term...I can use unplayable, undesireable, crap..etc, etc...if that is more comfortable.  Do you find the look of the first picture to be satisfactory on a course that at most will get 11,000 rounds per year?

[John Kavanaugh]

I do have a question for the supers who I understand might be getting offended by all of this.  How long after punch holes have healed should a membership have before the greens are punched again?  Should greens have continuous punch holes so they can remain healthy?

[David Lott]

I do have a question for the supers who I understand might be getting offended by all of this.  How long after punch holes have healed should a membership have before the greens are punched again?  Should greens have continuous punch holes so they can remain healthy?

No. But the greens should have a variety of grass that will withstand the most extreme stresses possible in your climate and the green's microclimate, and should be cut and watered to minimize the potential damage from stress. They should be designed to withstand stress, not just to satisfy an ideal of how a green should look, or how it should roll, in normal conditions.

Greens are tempermental, and a lot of the problems come from their design, not their maintenance.

As to your particular case, you know best--or at least someone does. Is there no one defending the superintendent at your course?

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  In the Hilton Head Island area, those with ultradwarft putting surfaces, typically aerify with a very small tine late Feb or early March, and 5/8 tine hole first of June and also first of August. We aerified 2 weeks ago today and were 95% healed. We will not aerify until next Febuary.
  Bentgrass courses in South Carolina will usually aerify with 5/8 tines first part of May and first part of Septemeber, along with needle tining in the summer months and once in the winter months.
  Bentgrass in the transition zone needs to be vented almost every month from May- September.
 Comparing the 2 photos, looks like Dan';s is doing a few things right....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

I shouldn't answer the specific question on aeration, but most courses around here do it at least twice a year, and some up to four times a year, maybe more. When I worked at a course for the summer so long ago, we had clay greens and were trying to convert to sand via aerification - taking out the plugs once a month and replacing with sand.  That year, there were holes all the time.  So, it varies.

Your comments have that same tinge of "super doesn't know what he is doing" and sound like the "typical member after a few cold ones" today.  I don't know enough about the situation to comment intelligently, but will side with the super over these kind of comments until I do.  

If he generally keeps them well, but suffered for brief periods, do you really think he forgot everything he knows?  Chances are, one of his educated guesses (that all supers make every day) was wrong initially. Some possible issues include various bugs and neamtodes, fungus, etc. or water quality which can stress greens in tougher conditions.  These are not always easy conditions to assess immediately. Even "ramping up" conditions for big events at the wrong time agronomically can be very stressful to turf, but sometimes necessary.  

Please consider that the climate is just tough this year.  The USGA Green Section did a study of dead greens some years back.  About 2% of US courses experience some dead greens every year.  Most years showed concentrations in certain regions (yes there were some dreadful mistakes) where there had been unusually difficult weather - either ice from the winter, but mostly heat, humidity or drought during the growing season.  

If your super is recommending more fans, it seems he believes its an air circulation problem, which is VERY common.  Look around to see if the suffering greens are all tree surrounded, or in valleys or other areas where the wind is still.  Then you can report back to us with a more informed complaint.

BTW, if members wouldn't complain, I would say its a great time to de-tree a few greens in the name of better turf.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do have a question for the supers who I understand might be getting offended by all of this.  How long after punch holes have healed should a membership have before the greens are punched again?  Should greens have continuous punch holes so they can remain healthy?

No. But the greens should have a variety of grass that will withstand the most extreme stresses possible in your climate and the green's microclimate, and should be cut and watered to minimize the potential damage from stress. They should be designed to withstand stress, not just to satisfy an ideal of how a green should look, or how it should roll, in normal conditions.

Greens are tempermental, and a lot of the problems come from their design, not their maintenance.

As to your particular case, you know best--or at least someone does. Is there no one defending the superintendent at your course?

David,

There is not a greens committee at our course.  The owners do fully support Dan as they should.  I am not saying Dan is the problem or that the dead greens are even his fault.  I think they will eventually all become alive again when fans are installed on every green and they are punched every May, July and Sept and kept very slow.  Yippee...

With all this talk of micro-climate I am left wondering why the course with the largest budget, sub-air and fewest rounds has the worst, slowest greens in town.  At least with the installation of fans, not just any fans but the largest money can buy, it is hard to hear your guests bitching about the conditions...so not all is lost.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

Here is a picture of the latest dead green that currently has four portable fans sitting on top of it with a generator in the bunker.  Obviously with the lake near by it is not an air circulation problem that killed it...hint..it is not a lack of water either.  yea, I see the shade, damn golf course photographers.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is the other green that is dying this year and all the trees between the lake and the green were removed at the beginning of the year.  It is not an airmovement problem.

[David Lott]

John:

"The owners do fully support Dan as they should.  I am not saying Dan is the problem or that the dead greens are even his fault.  I think they will eventually all become alive again when fans are installed on every green and they are punched every May, July and Sept and kept very slow.  Yippee..."

So it is a design issue, right?

Actually, I can't possibly know what the situation is at your course.

All I know is that in general supers are blamed for a lot that is not their fault, and not thanked for a lot that they do.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

If you see shadows on the green at what appears to be high noon, you could have a problem.  Sometimes, even when the lake allows open winds, they "eddy" when the hit an obstacle, like trees near greens.  Depending on the prevailing wind, its often a good idea to cut wind chutes through the trees in that direction, even if leaving the rest of the trees.

I can't tell from the picture if the water in that lake gets into your irrigation system and hits the green.....nor if there is any water quality issues, just by looking.  I suggest some water tests but wouldn't be surprised if your qualified super had done them already.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

I have a bias in favor of architects and based partially on that and the great conditioning we have had in the past will not say it is a design fault.

I would support ripping up all the greens and planting another grass if that is what it takes before we end up with monster green fans on every hole that run from March to December.  They were on in April this year with 40 deg temps so I don't know yet when they will be shut down...guessing Thanksgiving.

[Michael Hayes]

John,

Have your super look into a "Planet Air" Aerifier.  I had one at my old club and used it every other week on my greens in conjuction with a vericut and light topdressing, the members never even knew I was punching...  This would be a great tool in the transition zone to promote gas exchange...NOT THAT YOU NEED HELP WITH THAT CONCEPT

Are you considering the Fellowship of the dunes for next Jan.?

Michael Hayes

[David Lott]

Final comment:

At my home course in the Low Country of South Carolina, the greens are maddeningly slow at certain times of the year, and very quick at others.
This is not poor maintenance--it is good maintenance, preparing the course to accept the stresses of a harsh and variable climate.

Our super is neither young nor old, but he has a thick skin and a strong personality--pretty necessary traits, I think. Will he get too old? My guess is that he will tire of us before we tire of him.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Have your super look into a "Planet Air" Aerifier.  I had one at my old club and used it every other week on my greens in conjuction with a vericut and light topdressing, the members never even knew I was punching...  This would be a great tool in the transition zone to promote gas exchange...NOT THAT YOU NEED HELP WITH THAT CONCEPT

Are you considering the Fellowship of the dunes for next Jan.?

Michael Hayes

Michael,

I am not allowed to email the super anymore but I am sure he will read this and possibly follow your excellent advice.  My wife just asked me last night why I don't go on anymore GCA trips...I am considering.  Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

If you see shadows on the green at what appears to be high noon, you could have a problem.  Sometimes, even when the lake allows open winds, they "eddy" when the hit an obstacle, like trees near greens.  Depending on the prevailing wind, its often a good idea to cut wind chutes through the trees in that direction, even if leaving the rest of the trees.

I can't tell from the picture if the water in that lake gets into your irrigation system and hits the green.....nor if there is any water quality issues, just by looking.  I suggest some water tests but wouldn't be surprised if your qualified super had done them already.

Jeff,

Here is a different angle from Ran's writeup.  I hope he does get the water checked...for too much of it.

[Matt MacIver]

Here in NC our Sup't purchased a PlanetAire, said he would basically rotate it between the tees and greens and by so doing would probably replace the summer aeration, leaving just the spring and fall.  

We lost a few greens last year with our new bentgrass greens (A-3?) due to hot summer, poor airflow and mowing heights cut too low.  The goal this year was to keep them a bit shaggier in July-August to they're perfect for the numerous Sept. - Oct. events.  

[Craig Sweet]

John K...just because your greens were alive one year is no guarentee they'll be alive the next year...even if the maintinance hasn't changed..

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Okay, you win. You know more than the super you have, or anyone in the golf biz.  Just out of curiosity, if you don't think his opinion is right, have you or anyone requested he use the USGA or an outside agromist for a second opinion on the fans?  A second set of eyes never hurt.

Why don't you read to us from the irrigation records how much water he put out at various times vs. the ET.  I would be curious to know how and when he overwatered.  Thanks.

[paul cowley]

I'm generally smart enough to know what I don't know, and although I have worked as a greens keeper, I am not a Superintendent......but I do have experience in the transition zone with bent grass and Sub-air systems, with much of this knowledge coming from a super Super....named David Downing [of GCSAA fame].

Dave has been able to consult and grow great bent grass turf for us...and he is a big proponent of Sub-air systems in our hot, humid conditions.

He uses Sub-air to extract the heated ground water that can sit in a green complex which can actually stew the root system of cool season grasses.....which happens when the ground temps reach high levels combined with the reduced breathability of the sub soil layer.
This and a lot of other hocus pocus.

Makes sense to me.

Maybe it might make sense at VN......and Dave consults...and since you already have the system....I'm sure his initial $.02 will be much cheaper than a fan....but who knows?...not me.

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