[Ally Mcintosh]

Doug:

I haven't seen Lawsonia in twenty years, and the maintenance was much different back then, but I agree with your example in concept.  Any time I'm building a blind shot, I'm going to make it extra wide on the back end to make sure you find your ball.  The anxiety caused by the lack of visibility should not be compounded by potential lost-ball hazards.

this about sums it up for me... i like almost all blind shots where you can hit with confidence...

tom, the erin hills 'dell' example you give made me think about the north berwick glens course which i know you quite enjoyed (relatively speaking)... the most photographed hole on that course is the one shotter 13th where the green is very close to the rocks / beach / sea... the disappointment with this drop shot is that it's blind over a flat horizon... any views on that hole?

one other thing... did mackenzie say in 'golf architecture' that the blind shots he least liked were the ones where only the flagstick was visible?... if so, what was he getting at?... i can't quite recall...

[Brad Swanson]

Doug,
   I'm with Phil regarding #2 at Lawsonia.  My round there earlier this year with Tiger Berhardt and Dick Daley had me and Dick arguing over the line for the teeshot when recommending where Tiger should aim.  You are correct in that the low point of the saddle is really not the optimal line, but mentally it is where the subconscious wants to aim, making it somewhat of a challenge to pick your line even if you have played it multiple times.  This type of architectural sleight of hand adds uncertainty to repeat plays which to me is better than a design in the "its only blind once" school.  In addition, I have pulled my teeshot left of the center of the saddle and only found the short rough there, so the penalty for missing left, be it by poor execution or not trusting your instincts, is not severe.

Cheers,
Brad

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

Yes, that par-3 hole at the Glen is very disappointing, particularly when you look back from the next fairway and see what would be one of the greatest approach shots in golf!

I don't remember the MacKenzie quote you are citing but it is similar to what I'm saying.  A blind shot over a big hill is exciting; a blind shot over a small crest just means the architect didn't do a great job of laying out his holes so you could see better (assuming you hit a reasonable drive -- we can't fix everything for everybody!).

[George Pazin]

The only blind holes that really bug me are when there are either lost ball hazards or brutal, lose-your-ball kind of rough, especially when the fairway moves AFTER the blindness.

I remember hitting one of my better drives of the day at the 11th hole at Mystic Rock, following the gentle right to left curve of the fairway out to a ridge, and then finding out the fairway curved left to right after the ridge, and the rough was so thick I had no chance of finding my ball. I don't like that kind of blindness at all.

I will also add that the distinction Tom D offers in the opening post is an excellent example of why I like to read his and other architects posts - it shows a depth of thinking well beyond that of many other posters on here.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I enjoy walking so I carry my bag at my club and our 11th hole is a par 5 with a blind second shot over a hill. The problem is that in order to be sure that the group ahead has cleared I must walk up the hill and then back to my ball.  This is a problem with blind holes where players are walking and carrying their bags.  I would say that a blind hole can be a problem in this situation - mind you, I do enjoy the hole, but not the walk up and back.

[Phil McDade]

Jerry:

You should just be on the lookout for Garland Bayley handing out fast-play coupons at the crest of the hill of a blind hole. If he's giving them out, the hole should be clear!

[Michael]

Do we count the unintentional blind shots in a risk/reward type hole?
 I've always thought that "cutting" a dog leg should be with danger and hazards lurking on the unknown far side.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

There are all kind of blind holes in Scotland. I believe the enjoyment factor is the greatest the longer one can see the ball in the air.
The blind crest 40m from the Tee doesn’t particularly excite as one has no idea if the shot was well executed or not - whereas watching the ball starting it’s downward trajectory gives one the chance to judge if it’s going to be a “good one”

Prestwick's Alps hole is pretty unique as the green is also defended at the front by a deep bunker not to mention the deep gorse behind green.
The last time I was there I suggested to the Secretary they should put a tunnel under the hill so one can see if anyone is on the green and also avoid the steep tramp over the crest. Needless to say he didn’t take me seriously - “Pearls before ……….”

[Dan Kelly]

Haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned already:

I really, really like blindness "created" by the player himself --  who, having chosen the safer route (or the route to the shortest possible subsquent shot), finds the next shot blind ... whereas, had he chosen the riskier route (or the longer subsequent shot), he would be able to see the landing area for the next shot.

Case in point: No. 13 at The Quarry, Giants Ridge, by Jeff Brauer.

Other examples?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Yes, nothing wrong at all with optional blindness.

As to mandatory, Tom D is about right - you need good definition and a bit more room to manuever if blindness is dictated by the topo.  Even then, some won't like it.

Heck, some call it bllind when they don;t see the bottom of the flagstick.

[Wyatt Halliday]

One of the great pleasures in golf is the anticipation after a well struck blind shot.

This quote personifies what is good about a blind hole.

However, I think that when faced with blindness on an approach, things aren't as simple.

The severity of the green and the location of the hole dictate the merits of a blind approach.

Some may contend that the whole point of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as little amount of strokes as possible. A blind shot into a three tiered green with little chance of two putting puts a screeching halt to any pleasurable anticipation.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom Doak,

Considering two of your comments on this thread I would be interested in hearing your imporssions/opinions of hole #5 at Long Cove Club (I believe you worked for Dye on that site?).

It seems to possess two characteristics that would have you label it a less than great blind hole or at least one you would not build on one of your courses.

[Dan Moore]

Here is the 2nd at Lawsonia.  I think it is a great hole.  

The best line is over the right hand mound just to the left of the trees which were not there when the hole was built.  Imagine the view without any trees.   The mounds at the crest of the hill were built to add definition as the drive over the crest of the hill would have been totally featureless without them.  The fairway is quite wide today as they were widened in the last ten years though not as wide as when built.  The fairway was probably 50-60 yards wide originally.  

From the tee.


The view from the walkway between the mounds which beautifully presents a view of the barn/maintenace building as you climb the hill.  The green would also have been presented but is now blocked by trees.  


The drive sets up a wonderful downhill 2nd shot.  Stay far left and you have a longer 2nd and a better view of the green which doesn't have to contend with the mounds/bunkers on the right, but brings the greenside bunker left into play.  Stay right and the big mounds/bunkers on the right hide some of the green on your approach and the 20-30 yards of downhill open area short of the green which can be used to run a long shot in from a shorter hitter.    

I think its pretty neat that a blind drive that is given directional definition by mounds placed by the architect still requires a strategic decision about playing left or right to a very wide fairway.  Oh and the green is pretty good too.  

View from left side of the fairway.


View from the right side of the fairway.  I suspect the fairway went a little farther right originally.  

[Pat Brockwell]

I find it very satisying to hit a drive clean out of sight! Blind hazards not so much.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg T:

I have a very soft spot in my heart for the fifth hole at Long Cove.  Pete built a number of versions of it on subsequent courses (Old Marsh, Firethorn, etc.) but that was his original version and the best of those I saw.  It was inspired by the 13th and 14th at North Berwick, and is kind of a combination of the two.

The Long Cove hole is the best of the bunch because there were two possible ways to get a view of the green.  If you laid back very close to the water on the left about 180-200 yards from the tee, you could see the left side of the green; and if you drove it up to the top of the dune, you could see the flag.  Both of those places were very hard to get to, however, so most played safely away to the right leaving a blind approach toward the water.

I did think that using the water left and behind was a very severe penalty but Pete wanted the hole to really scare people.

[Doug Siebert]

Phil,

You are probably right about me needing to use driver less at Lawsonia.  When I played it the first time I didn't know where the heck I was going and the guys I was playing with weren't nearly as long as me so the lines they were telling me to play were only somewhat helpful.  When I played again the next day I had a better idea where I was going but sometimes lack of ability to hit it where one is aiming interferes with the best laid plans...

My issue on holes like #2, #5, and #15 (to pick on a few examples with blind landing areas) is that while you are probably correct I should play those with a 1 iron or whatever, its not because its too narrow (as you say, the fairways are generous) but simply because I need to limit my distance so that I can see the ball land (well, I wouldn't on #2, but a pull wouldn't reach the long grass on the left like my drive did -- and by pull, I mean a shot that was still inside the left hill off the tee so it wasn't a wild one by any measure)  Likewise on #5 if I fly it left into that long grass over the TEPaul turbo boost hill, I won't see it land and I'll never find it.  Ditto for the left rough on #15 if I hit it left over the crest of the hill.

I realize that familiarity with this course would probably help me a lot here.  If I hit a heel pull on the 15th hole of my home course, I know where to look for it even though I can't see it land.  So even when its late spring and the rough is growing so fast it gets to 6" between mowings and you have to practically step on the ball to find it, I still find it because I know the hole well enough to know where a given shot quality will go, distance wise.  At Lawsonia the only way I can tell whether I'm looking 230 off the tee or 330 is by looking at the distance markers and doing a little math based on the length of the hole, which doesn't account for the offline factor, hills, firmness of ground etc. so my search area is just too large.  If I played it 15-20 times I'd probably learn where to look so that even if I did hit into the long grass out of view, I could narrow my search enough to quickly locate the ball most of the time.

But that said, I still don't like the kind of blindness where the fact my landing area is blind causes me to need/want to limit my distance off the tee to avoid the possibility that a missed but not wildly missed shot has a good chance of costing me two strokes.  If I club down it should be strategic because I need more accuracy or want to stay short of bunkers that pinch the fairway or avoid running through a dogleg.

As for Brad, just ignore him on this subject, he considers it a big hook if he's 3 yards left of a 30 yard wide fairway....he plays a game with which I'm not familiar, at least in the driving accuracy department, so I'm not surprised he doesn't understand what I'm talking about here!  Its just not fair that some people get both length AND accuracy, makes the rest of us see what hacks we really are

[David Lott]

A few personal opinions based on play, not any design concepts:

Blind shots to a green are more interesting if hit with short to medium irons, so you can have the thrill (sometimes) of seeing the ball arch high over the obstacle. For the same reason I prefer the downhill shot to the uphill, though an uphill blind shot is more challenging.

Tee shots blind uphill are interesting. One of the best is #1 at Elie in Scotland, where you bang away over a rise after getting the all clear through the periscope. It seems to take all the tension out of the swing.

(My other favorite blind shot in Fife is #1 at TOC.  You can see the target, of course, but if you watch at #1 for a while you would swear that about half the golfers have their eyes shut when they swing.)

I also think blind shots are better if there is more than one landmark for aiming, so you can have a sense of how to work a shot. The worst is where the landmark is artificial--a tall pole or something.

If the shot is to a green, one major greenside obstacle (a bunker, a slope, a hollow) makes it more interesting, but a blind green surrounded by hazards is piling on.

The real thrill of the blind shot is that it stimulates the imagination. Thus any feature that stimulates imagining the shot (or, after the shot is made, imagining the result) enhances the hole. Thus contours in the landing area are especially interesting.

Don't worry about fairness. A blind shot has an inherent element of unfairness the first time you must hit it. After that it's up to the imagination of the golfer.





Hitting uphill to a blind green

[Jonathan Cummings]

Someone once said that in golf blind shots should be used sparingly.  I agree.  

There is a daily fee course in MD that has seven (SEVEN!) target rocks guiding you for their blind shots.

My own course has two blind tee shots.  Long ago they installed red/green traffic lights for safety.  You arrive at the tees and hit away if the light is green.  You then press a button at the tee turning the light red to stop those behind you from teeing off.  After you hit your approaches you press another button down the fairway turning the red light at the tee back to green.  Works surprisingly well as my club has little outside play and members would be drawn and quartered if they forgot the light system.

JC

[Greg Tallman]

Greg T:

I have a very soft spot in my heart for the fifth hole at Long Cove.  Pete built a number of versions of it on subsequent courses (Old Marsh, Firethorn, etc.) but that was his original version and the best of those I saw.  It was inspired by the 13th and 14th at North Berwick, and is kind of a combination of the two.

The Long Cove hole is the best of the bunch because there were two possible ways to get a view of the green.  If you laid back very close to the water on the left about 180-200 yards from the tee, you could see the left side of the green; and if you drove it up to the top of the dune, you could see the flag.  Both of those places were very hard to get to, however, so most played safely away to the right leaving a blind approach toward the water.

I did think that using the water left and behind was a very severe penalty but Pete wanted the hole to really scare people.

Mission accomplished... I am a very good wedge player and have never felt less comfortable over a 90ish yard shot.

While the intention of the lay up hugging the water has merit I don't see the overall benefit given the risk... you would have to be within 10 yards of the water (2-3 from the rough) in order to have a view at the green.

[JohnV]

I've always enjoyed blind shots as there is the thrill of the unknown.  

I agree with George P and others that the one kind of blind shot I hate is one that leads the player into penalties that can't be anticipated.  I remember one hole at a course in Oregon where I was playing the first time and hit a "perfect" drive only to go over the hill and discover a hidden water hazard on the back side.  If this were a private course where most people would be familiar with the hole I wouldn't dislike it as much as I did this one since it was a public course with lots of first time players.  Perhaps a GPS system on a cart would help

Tom got me with one like this at #14 at Stone Eagle.  I hit driver, not realizing the hazard was there and in reach from the tee.  The second time I hit 4-wood and was in perfect shape.  I believe it was Tommy Armour who said that a hole is "only blind the first time."

One of my favorite kinds of blind hole is where the player gets a partial view of the landing area, but hitting the ball to the blind part of the fairway is really the best way to play the hole.  #7 at Bandon Dunes comes to mind.  Hitting the ball over the junk to the left gives a much better angle to the green than hitting to the visible fairway on the right.

[Kalen Braley]

Pebble Beach has its fair share of blind and uphill shots and it seems to be fairly decent course.    

I think it has just about the right amount.... 2 blind tee shots, a blind approach on 6, and the severly uphill approach into 14.

[Phil McDade]

Doug:

Well, there's no doubt that familiarity with some of the blindness at Lawsonia helps. I remember being pretty uncomfortable the first time I played it years ago (alone, in the late fall), but now it's obviously a lot more familiar. But I do think some of the design elements there in terms of blindness are meant to create the very feelings you have on the tee -- being uncomfortable in not seeing, and perhaps not knowing where to look, for a tee shot to a blind landing area. I don't know if that's fair or not (and I tend not to use that word a lot when it comes to golf course design), but I think some architects (and L/M are among them, I'd argue) want golfers to be able to "trust their line" or "trust their shot" or something to that affect in presenting blindness on holes. By this reasoning, those less trusting of their line/shot ought to throttle back.

Admittedly, we may be splitting hairs here -- my short, crappy game may be better suited in an odd way to the blind elements of a Lawsonia than a long, good game.

And I nearly forgot to add -- rumor has it Swanson once went at Lawsonia's 550-plus par 5 13th with an 8-iron for a second shot. That's not only a game with which I'm not familiar, it's one I might even spend money to see!

[Kerry Gray]

One of the great pleasures in golf is the anticipation after a well struck blind shot.

This quote personifies what is good about a blind hole.

However, I think that when faced with blindness on an approach, things aren't as simple.

The severity of the green and the location of the hole dictate the merits of a blind approach.

Some may contend that the whole point of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as little amount of strokes as possible. A blind shot into a three tiered green with little chance of two putting puts a screeching halt to any pleasurable anticipation.

Wyatt,
I think there are a couple of points here.
One, when designing I think the architect must consider that the course is meant most often for multiple play. that is, unlike the TPC at Sawgrass, the course can reveal itself over multiple rounds. These shots become easier with familiarity.
Secondly the pin positon on particularly nasty greens can be indicated on the tee each day rather easily. Either a number for position or statement like "middle right". I have seen such.
Either way, given the choice perhaps extreme greens are not the best choice, but I wouldn't say they necessarily would be bad.

[Kerry Gray]

I like blind shots and think they are too rare in modern architecture.
In general I think the blind shot that has a frame of reference is not that difficult. That is, a tree or other object you can focus on for direction and alignment. It gives you a target. And I am a mediocre golfer at best!
But I love the rare occassion when I come upon a blind shot that gives me no frame of reference to aim at. It tests my ability to focus. I may know the distance I want to hit it, but I cannot pick out a tree or anything to focus on as a target at set-up. "Hitting into oblivion". I cannot imagine what that does to the better players who generally do not like blind shots.
What could be bad? Multiple blind shots on one hole is likely unpopular.
 

[D_Malley]

merion east is loaded with blind shots, yet for some reason many people either overlook this or do not even notice them.

2nd shot #1 for most players
2nd shot #2
2nd shot #4
tee shots on 6,7,& 8 players cannot see fairway landing areas

just to name a few

i remember some members of a local club, which was closed for a renovation were protesting that the golf shop was setting them up to play at Overbrook because it has too many blind shots.  The pro then said i guess you guys then would not want to play merion either.  you should of seen the look on their faces.

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