Tell me about your Elks course.

« **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:15:38 PM »

Quote from: Jim Sweeney on August 02, 2007, 10:05:50 PM

HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.

Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.

Solid golf course in Portsmouth!!! Great mix of holes. That #10 can bust a lot of balls!!!

« **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:25:18 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 02, 2007, 09:14:38 PM

I would like to hear another opinion if leasing Southern Pines out is a good thing. I can only see a leasing company wanting to increase revenue through tourists and that means more length and other stupid tourist ideas. I'm not feeling this to be a positive development.

I am an Elk and a golf member of the club. There was little choice about leasing the club so the "decision" to do it was a non-decision.

Whether or not it is a good thing. It depends on your preference.

The course is in great condition (better than it has in years). The contract involves a great deal of investment by the leasee. Additionally, modifications to the course cannot be made without approval. Finally, there is not a ton of room to add tees further back on most holes unless you want to tee off from the previous green.

Unfortunately, there will be more play on the course. It will no longer be a "secret" or at least a course the perfect-conditioning-seeking tourist will shun any more. For me, that means it will be harder to just spur of the moment leave work early and walk on for a quick 9 or 18. The "only" thing really needed right now to keep the golf package people from getting perhaps justifiably pissed off is bunker rennovations. Even if you can excuse the conditions, they are very inconsistent. The 9th has four bunkers around the green with four different consistencies.

« **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:34:10 PM »

Quote from: Craig Disher on August 02, 2007, 10:38:20 PM

Part of the abandoned 9 - a fairway, green, tee box, and tee sign - can be seen to the right of the 13th tee. It's mostly covered by brush. The 9th green can be seen to the right of the 18th. The last time I was there it was being used as a practice pitching area.

Parallel to the par 3 7th was a fairway from the old-old nine. I doubt if anything is left of those holes.

Taking trees out would be easy. E.g., on the 5th fairway the bunkers on the left which would catch a tee shot running down the slope are well surrounded by trees; the trees sitting in the old bunker on the right of #11 could go; etc. etc. Many of the bunkers have lost their edges thanks to the sand-pro. Some spots it's impossible to tell where the bunker begins. The ones on the 5th fairway are like sandy smudges.

A couple years ago I played the course and was pleasantly shocked by how open the area around the 1st fairway looked. I asked Ran how the club had decided to take down so many trees - he said that a wind storm had them out. Maybe another kamikaze attack would help.

Many of the trees along 17, 18, and 1 came down or were damaged in a torando a couple of years ago.

To th3 best of my knowledge, there was never a hole next to 7th. The only places the Cardinal 9 got near the other two were along the 13th (Cardinal 6th) and 18th (Cardinal 9). The original Cardinal 9th ran up what is now the driving range. The green was where the pool and/or practice green are now.

The old pictures of the course show pretty much no trees anywhere,(sand greens too) which was mostly the case throughout early Southern Pines and Pinehurst. I'd prefer to see some go or at least get the understory cleared out. I don't mind seeing other holes on the course.

« **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:47:18 PM »

Quote from: Craig Disher on August 02, 2007, 09:58:07 PM

My worry is that the Elks will sell the property for housing. The 9 holes next to the current course are already overgrown and the land is prime for development.

Not likely to happen. It is not zoned for it. The Town Council is not likely to rezone it either. How do I know? I'm on the Southern Pines Town Council.

There's a fair chance the "little 9" (Cardinal) will be brought back. There is also enough land to build nine more holes.

« **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:53:59 PM »

Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on August 02, 2007, 08:13:12 PM

Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!

Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!

Mark
I would say the first 9 holes are all world. What don't you like about the great redan 7th? The awesome downhill, slight dog leg 8th with the great green contouring and the amazing par 3 ninth? These 3 holes are every bit as good as the 1st six.
I first played SP in 1997 and loved the layout and the conditioning wasn't an issue back then. However, over the years it has become progressively worse. So much so that I didn't play the course the last couple of times I was there. I'm not one to complain about conditioning of a golf course, but it had become to the point that it was actually affecting my enjoyment of the course. I think if the conditioning was good, it would be one of my favourite courses in North America. It's just that good.

« **Reply #30 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:15:51 PM »

I haven't played there since about 2000. But, S.P. G.C. Elks has always been one of my best memories of the way golf ought to be. I also played the "little nine" which seemed like they were cutting the FWs maybe once a week and greens maybe twice at that point. I felt it was perfectly obvious that the "bones" of that course are still there and a remodel-simpathetic to Ross ideas would be a wonderful undertaking.

I don't know any of the internal club politics, what was needed to keep the maintanence to a modest but acceptable level. I just hope that restraint, and conservative approaches to management are the underlying intentions of the powers that be there, because it is one of those courses and places where the idea of golf for the common people should be practiced as a tradition and where the line should be drawn regarding keeping high dollar sign dreamers and skeemers away.

« **Reply #31 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:21:17 PM »

Regarding the special relationship that the Elks have to golf, I looked into it some years ago. I forget what all I found. But, the 11th hour bell toll for those missing was (I think) a tradition that traced back to the Scots. Are the Elks founded by and upon many Scottish philosophies and traditions?

The area Elks course near Green Bay is actually on the lake shore in Manitowoc. I never played it. It is pretty rudimentary looking.

Did the Elks approach this recreational ammenity at some of their clubs as an asset that was to be very modestly maintained, very accessible to the poeple, and not generally desirable to oversee what would be considered competitive-tournament type courses?

« **Reply #32 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:37:27 PM »

Quote from: Chris_Smithson on August 03, 2007, 02:34:10 PM

Many of the trees along 17, 18, and 1 came down or were damaged in a torando a couple of years ago.

To th3 best of my knowledge, there was never a hole next to 7th. The only places the Cardinal 9 got near the other two were along the 13th (Cardinal 6th) and 18th (Cardinal 9). The original Cardinal 9th ran up what is now the driving range. The green was where the pool and/or practice green are now.

The old pictures of the course show pretty much no trees anywhere,(sand greens too) which was mostly the case throughout early Southern Pines and Pinehurst. I'd prefer to see some go or at least get the understory cleared out. I don't mind seeing other holes on the course.

Chris,
I based my comments on a 1930s aerial of SP. The Cardinal nine is clearly visible but there are corridors for what appear to be another 9. The corridor that is next to #7 was a par 4 with the tee about 50 yards east of the #7 tee. The hole ran south to north. The aerial shows that the Cardinal nine was in play but the other holes had either been abandoned or were never completed. It's also appears possible that the Cardinal 9 was culled from an original 18, maybe the first 4 and last 5 holes. The routing wandered well out to the east over what is now housing.

« **Reply #33 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:56:25 PM »

Evan,

Yes 7 thru 9 are really good; however, those specimen trees down in the valley that reach up to obscure the green site made me feel like a crop duster.

9 is very good but I didn't like it as much as 3. It's also in a tough neighborhood, seeing as it's sandwiched between 8 and 10.

Mark

« **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2007, 09:52:14 AM »

I thought the orginal 9 and Vincennes Elks was Langford and Moreau??

« **Reply #35 on:** August 04, 2007, 12:00:31 PM »

Chris,

That's what I thought from looking at the Google earth aerial but have not seen the course or any documentation that it is one of theirs.

« **Reply #36 on:** August 06, 2007, 01:09:33 AM »

There's an Elks club course here that was built in 1899, and expanded to 9 holes in 1900. Its got some really crazy holes, the second hole is a short par 5 where the second shot falls down a 40 foot cliff about 80 yards from the green, so its totally blind. There's a bell you ring to signal to the group behind that you've cleared the green.

Its also got a horseshoe shaped par 5 that's only about 250 to the green, but you can't play it that way because of trees, but if you can hit a banana slice off the tee it should be pretty easy. I found it quite difficult in my first visit in 20 years a month ago or so, modern equipment doesn't lend itself well to much of a fade and I hit a 300 yard drive that probably didn't get me even 150 yards closer to the hole!

There's a 260 yard par 4 with a tiny little raised green and trouble all over the place that is a strategic mystery I've yet to solve. You can go for the green and risk trouble, you can lay up about 50 yards short and have a flat lie but a totally blind approach, or you can lay up 100 yards short and have a severely downhill and sidehill lie but have a clear view of the green.

The 8th hole has you teeing off across the driveway that's about 100 yards out, there's a sign at both ends of the road that tells you to watch for golfers before driving across the road. I think a duck hook could take out the windshields of the cars on the far edge of the parking lot, its a good thing I'm not a member there or I might need to take out some supplemental insurance just in case

Its got two new holes since I played it 20 years ago, they traded the city some land and built a new par 5 (nice hole) and a par 4 (OK hole) They got rid of a boring par 3 that's used as a practice hole now and a par 4 I can't remember, so the par went from 35 to 37 as a result.

« **Reply #37 on:** August 06, 2007, 04:28:13 AM »

Quote from: Evan_Smith on August 03, 2007, 04:53:59 PM

Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on August 02, 2007, 08:13:12 PM
Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!

Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!

Mark
I would say the first 9 holes are all world. What don't you like about the great redan 7th? The awesome downhill, slight dog leg 8th with the great green contouring and the amazing par 3 ninth? These 3 holes are every bit as good as the 1st six.

Evan

I agree with you. 7-9 is probably the best 3 hole stretch on the course. Though I really like #s 4, 17 & 18 as well. In any case, I shall look to play Southern Pines again so long as they don't catch Pinehurst Ripoff Fever.

Ciao

« **Reply #38 on:** August 06, 2007, 09:08:49 AM »

Dan,

Look in C&W I thought there is a Langford and Moreau 9 hole course in Vincennes that was built in the 20's I believe. I have not played it, but I want to. I know that Langford did the Oakland City 9 hole course down the road that C&W list as a Langford solo course, but that was much later than Vincennes.

Chris

« **Reply #39 on:** August 06, 2007, 11:44:19 AM »

Erik Terhorst and I played Kankakee Elks yesterday in a light to medium rain for all 18 holes. It is a Langford Moreau design with an excellent set of greens and at least 8-9 really terrific holes. The course has been the site of a Futures Tour event the past few years.

The playing conditions were quite good--Lawsonia would benefit from greens in that condition.

However, the course is the worst example I have seen of a tree planting program run amok. Many of the L/M bunkers framing the fairways are now in the trees and many of the holes are dotted with new trees planted in the last 2-3 years. When those trees mature some of the greens will only be accessable from one side of the fairway.

Green fees were $36 to walk and I recommend seeing it for some excellent holes and super L/M greens and for the sick feeling you will have after you imagine what ther course will be like in 20 years when the 100's of new trees mature.

Here is one example showing older trees blocking the left hand side and new plantings on the right. Green is visible on the far left.

« **Reply #40 on:** August 06, 2007, 11:58:08 AM »

Dan:

Did you double up at Harrison Hills?

Is Kankakee bunkerless ala L/M's Spring Valley in WI? Kankakee looks that way from some aerials I've seen.

« **Reply #41 on:** August 06, 2007, 12:02:30 PM »

Dan:

Did you find the remnants of the old par 3 fifth hole I believe on the front side??? I am sure the replacmeent par 3 jumped out at you as it did me as not being L&M.

What did you think of the uphill long par three on the back 9. There are some terrific L&M holes there.

I believe all the bunkers were orginally sand, but let go to seed.

Chris

« **Reply #42 on:** August 06, 2007, 12:21:37 PM »

Any other Bay Area (Peninsula) folks play at Emerald Hills in Redwood City? That was a regular course for my dad.

http://www.emeraldhillslodge.com/golf.htm

« **Reply #43 on:** August 06, 2007, 12:23:23 PM »

I was wondering if anyone would bring up this beauty, Kevin. Oh yes I have played it many times...
during the several years I lived in San Carlos
I was a regular there also.

Fun little course. Horrid conditions, but fun.

« **Reply #44 on:** August 06, 2007, 01:23:17 PM »

Dan, I am glad I was not with you. I think I would have thrown up to see what you describe and what is quite evident in the picture. Yet, you say the greens are 'better' than Lawsonia? How so? Faster, firmer... what?

When you think about the time it takes a rough mower, endlessly circling tree trunks VS open roughs with straight passes, just that alone you would think a frugal Elks maintenance committee would realise the benefits of getting rid of the trees. Then, to consider how much fun they would open up by loosing the trees, and putting some sand back in those seeded over bunkers, which are flat and wouldn't be that tough to maintain... well it boggles the mind. It is as if you had a vintage Jaguar or other such classic car and drove it around all the time, not changing oil, or tuning it up or even washing and polishing it. Pity...

« **Reply #45 on:** August 06, 2007, 01:30:52 PM »

Tom, the (tiny) greens at Emerald Hills are in fine shape. The conditions aren't horrid at all these days. (Well, some tees are a bit dodgy, but who cares?)

It's a great natural golf course, reminiscent of a mini-Stanford, due to all the Oaks, but a lot hillier. Pretty much what a course that charges like $12 should be - natural and fun.

It's a great way to get your wedge game in shape, because hitting the greens from 105 yds is not easy. If you do hit them, you'll always have a good shot at birdie!

I take the boys (7 & 9) out there, but due to the hills, it ends up nearly inducing a heart-attack for me, since I often have to carry 3 bags

I never realized that the BPOE had such a collection of courses...

« **Reply #46 on:** August 06, 2007, 01:35:05 PM »

JK:

I haven't been there in several years - good to hear they gave it some TLC and it's now in good shape. When I played it the greens were all crabgrass. But it has been at least 8 years since I've been there.

Agreed re how fun it is (was), natural, etc.

TH

« **Reply #47 on:** August 06, 2007, 01:51:28 PM »

I think I'll start a thread on Kankakee Elks with more photos tonight when I have some time. The 1939 aerial shows little or no sand on the course. It also shows very few trees except for a grove where the 8th green and ninth tee were inserted. By the greens being better than Lawsonia I was referring mostly to speed. More tonight.

p.s. At Kankakee Elks in the LPGA Futures Tour tournament this year Seo-Jae Lee set a new record of -8 over 54 holes besting Nicole Castrale's -7 in 2005.

« **Reply #48 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:41:12 PM »

Phil,

We didn't double up at Harrison Hills, but it did come up in conversation.

Chris B

We saw the remains of the old par 3 5th and were told it was changed for safety reasons. Consensus was the par 3s as a set are very good, including the new one, which is uphill 140, and fits nicely with the downhill 175 yd 7th, the level 140 yd 12th with a tiny highly contoured green, and the one-of-a-kind 200+ yd 15th with its huge engineered green. Dan will have some pictures.

I was thinking that the par 3s stand out because they haven't been ruined by the aggressive tree-planting $:-\$

« **Reply #49 on:** August 07, 2007, 10:10:38 AM »

Eric_Terhorst:

I like the par 3's as well especially the uphill 200 yarder with the huge engineered green and the short 7th. I am not a huge fan of the new 5th hole, definetely does not fit. I would have loved to play the old 5th. Looks like it was a very good hole.

Thanks,
Chris

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