Worst Finishing Hole on a Major Course

« **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:16:50 PM »

I was going to say the 18th at Congressional as well.

The old 18th at Medinah was a terrible snap slice hole, fixed first by Roger Packard with lengthening, and then modified by Rees Jones.

Some would vote for Atlanta Athletic Clubs modified Par 5 in the David Thoms PGA as being too hard.

Frankly, the old 18th at Bethpage and the old 18th at Augusta were average closing holes at best.

I doubt the 18th at Torrey Pines will rank too highly in US Open anals when it qualifies for this thread.....

I will think of some more, but its a good topic.

« **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:26:39 PM »

I reserve the right to answer this question after next year's US Open at Torrey, South.

PS: Or, are they going to make it another long schlog par 4? And, to further clarify, I do mean wait to see. I can't figure if it is going to be a snooze fest, or become more players like Devlin's billibong.

« **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:30:46 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on July 23, 2007, 05:16:50 PM

I doubt the 18th at Torrey Pines will rank too highly in US Open anals when it qualifies for this thread.....

I don't know about that.

I can hear people already, calling it a "crap hole."

And I wouldn't be the one to co-rectum.

« **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:32:33 PM »

Hazeltine No. 18 is nothing special, it seems to me. Long, straight, uphill, not particularly noteworthy green.

« **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:32:41 PM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on July 23, 2007, 05:14:57 PM

Until 1975 the 18th was a par-5. The year of Watson's first major win the 18th played 448 yards, par-4. By 1999 it was 484, and now 499 yards. You could argue that 448 yards 32 years ago is about 499 today, but I still think the problem with 18 is how compromised the hole is during a championship set up.

Brad:

I fail to see how the hole is compromised for a major set-up. Left of 18 there is OB during the other 51 weeks of the year when Carnoustie's locals are playing the course, no? (Isn't left of 18 one of the three courses there?)

OK, it looks unnatural. But there is OB running tight alongside the entirety of the Honourable Company's 9th, considered a pretty good par 5 by major championship standards. There is fairly close OB left at Hoylake at both 1 (well, the old 1) and 6 (now eight). There is very tight OB right at Lytham's 8th, a nice gambling shortish par 4.

And how is the terrain different than what has preceded it?

« **Reply #30 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:33:49 PM »

Darn cross postings... kills the whole momemtum of the comments...

« **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:36:14 PM »

Yeah, and what about 18 at Hazeltine? Not much of a hole, up hill, straight forward, snooze fest.

« **Reply #32 on:** July 23, 2007, 05:39:00 PM »

"...one of those silly wicket fence posts "

Brad , we call them out of bounds posts in Scotland .

« **Reply #33 on:** July 23, 2007, 06:17:15 PM »

I would say the last at Carnoustie is one of the greatest finishing holes at a major. There is nothing quirky or unfair about that hole it is just demanding off the tee and into the green. It is also great because it becomes infinitely tougher under pressure. You could watch a lot of golf at Carnoustie and not see what Harrington and van de Welde had happen. It also got into Sergio's head big time as far as tee club and made him make a choice. These elements make it great.

A bad finisher is the last at Oakland Hills. Remember the great drive Lehmen hit under pressure that kept running into a bunker that you couldn't recover from. Steve Jones won because he was shorter than Lehmen. His ball was also going into that bunker. Not a lot of dimensions or options on that hole.

What do people think about the last at the Old Course given modern distances?

« **Reply #34 on:** July 23, 2007, 06:20:07 PM »

Quote from: Terry Lavin on July 23, 2007, 02:31:55 PM

Having just witnessed the puke-fest on 18 at Carnoustie, I was wondering what the fabled treehouse feels is the worst finishing hole on a course that has hosted a major. The 18th at Whistling Straits is sort of a goofy hole, IMHO and the 18th at Olympic is a good hole, but not a classically great finisher.

I'd say that Carnoustie has the worst finishing hole for a major hosting course.

Terry,

Considering the last two finishes at Carnoustie in the majors have come down to the last hole and they have both been thrilling, I dont see what your big beef is?

Pukefest??
Honestly...

« **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2007, 06:49:33 PM »

I certainly enjoy watching the pros play #18 at Carnoustie. Not sure how I would feel about it in person, its hard to tell from TV.

The hole I vote for I also enjoyed watching on TV. When I finally played it I found it to be one of the most ridiculous holes I'd ever seen. #18 at Whistling Straits. The pros have the game to play it, but for anybody mortal it was darn near impossible. The fairway runs out with maybe 160-170 to go then there's a little sliver of fairway over to the right somewhere and a whole lot of bad places to hit it. Not to mention its 500 yards from the back tees. Even the seniors didn't venture back there!

« **Reply #36 on:** July 23, 2007, 06:57:27 PM »

Didn't Pete Dye say something along the lines of 'Once you get these guys (pro golfers) thinking - they're in trouble'?
I like the hole because it suggests all manner of capitulation, it seems to get in the players' heads.. but a straight drive and a 4 iron seemed to work fine in 1999 for Lawrie.

« **Reply #37 on:** July 23, 2007, 07:02:10 PM »

Padraig's strategy during the playoff on the 18th mirrored that of David Toms on the 18th at Atlanta Athletic Club...

Just sayin' is all...

« **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2007, 08:21:32 PM »

Only one way to solve this debate...

[size=0.2pt]bu...DA[/size]...bu...DA...bu...DA...bu...DA...bu...DA...BUDA!!!!

Somebody send Farnie to the Food King, the Yanks are coming!

« **Reply #39 on:** July 24, 2007, 01:46:35 AM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on July 23, 2007, 03:06:04 PM

Case in point. John Senden, playing 18, hits his 2nd right into the stands, the ball kicks dead left, rolls across the green and heads directly o.b., only to hit one of those silly wicket fence posts and come to a halt.

It actually hit one of the white OB stakes, so even if the fence wasn't there he would have had the same result.

As for the quality of the fence, those Scots are thrifty you know, why spend big money on a fancy fence when a cheap one will serve the same purpose?

« **Reply #40 on:** July 24, 2007, 01:56:29 AM »

If anything ANGC's 15th is a more penal hole than Carnoustie's 18th, because at least at Carnoustie's 18th if you just want a 5, it is there for the taking if you hit an iron off the tee, lay up with an 8 iron or so, and SW to the green. Three simple shots, and the burn and OB will not come into play at all for anyone capable of qualifying for the Open.

Contrast that with how difficult making a 5 can be at ANGC's 15th. If you lay up you have to hit a wedge off a steeply downhill lie over water (so don't hit fat!) with more water behind the green (so don't hit thin either!) I really think that making a 5 would be easier there if you go for the green, assuming a drive that permits that option, because even if you hit into the water you still have second chance at 5 if you can manage to get up and down after your drop.

« **Reply #41 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:56:27 AM »

Doug, I've never played either course, so this is all from watching on TV. 18 at Carnie looks more penal to me than 15 ANGC.

You can hit your drive at Carnie OB or in the water. Not at ANGC, where you hit your second shot from dry land no matter what.

At Carnie if you miss your approach shot just a little left, you can go OB. Again not true at ANGC. There is no OB anywhere on that hole.

The entire green complex seems to me more open at ANGC. You can miss right, left or a fair amount long, and still have a shot at par or birdie. At Carnie left is OB...right can ricochet off the grandstands...long I don't know, except that I didn't see anyone hit long in the telecast.

Playing for a five doesn't seem to me the right measure, as 18 at Carnie is a par four that is typically 30 to 50 yards shorter than 15 at ANGC. Measured against par, there is no match at all. 18 at Carnie averaged .61 strokes over par this year. 15 at ANGC has averaged .2 strokes under par, for all Masters.

« **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2007, 03:59:01 AM »

You do realize that you just said that Carnoustie's 18th averaged 4.6 and ANGC's 15th averaged 4.8. Given the extra 31 yards, that means the scoring on them is pretty much the same.

Par is irrelevant, if it weren't for the tradition at the Masters with eagles on the back nine thanks to Sarazen in '35 and Nicklaus in '86, ANGC would have had the option of making 15 a 500 yard par 4 instead of lengthening it to 530 and keeping it a par 5.

I should have said "in some ways" ANGC's 15th is more penal. At Carnoustie if you choose to play for a 5 it is a straightforward hole and the 5 is easy to get. At ANGC there is no safe 5, and it breaks the risk/reward equation by making the "risky" option of going for the green in two perhaps a more conservative play than laying up!

« **Reply #43 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:16:39 AM »

Let me be sacriligious and suggest the 18th at TOC as the worst 18th hole in Major Championship golf. Scores range all the way from 3 to 4.

« **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:37:10 AM »

Mark, how Doug Sanders wishes that were so!

« **Reply #45 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:54:20 AM »

Jim,

I don't think there's a hole in the world that isn't susceptible to that sort of mishap. Missed tap-ins aside, however, I don't see that 18 at TOC offers much in terms of strategy or buttock clinching pressure,other than that which automatically comes with being the 72nd hole of a Major. Most of the drama there centres on fluffed shots (Sanders, Rocca) that most mod-handicappers would be embarrassed by.

Mark

« **Reply #46 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:28:06 AM »

Quote from: Doug Siebert on July 24, 2007, 03:59:01 AM

You do realize that you just said that Carnoustie's 18th averaged 4.6 and ANGC's 15th averaged 4.8. Given the extra 31 yards, that means the scoring on them is pretty much the same.

Par is irrelevant, if it weren't for the tradition at the Masters with eagles on the back nine thanks to Sarazen in '35 and Nicklaus in '86, ANGC would have had the option of making 15 a 500 yard par 4 instead of lengthening it to 530 and keeping it a par 5.

I should have said "in some ways" ANGC's 15th is more penal. At Carnoustie if you choose to play for a 5 it is a straightforward hole and the 5 is easy to get. At ANGC there is no safe 5, and it breaks the risk/reward equation by making the "risky" option of going for the green in two perhaps a more conservative play than laying up!

Doug, once again I haven't played either of these holes, so take my comments for whatever they are worth. I thought you could get a relatively flat lie if you lay up on the right side at ANGC 15. The green complex at ANGC also looks a lot more receptive to me. There is less penalty around it, no OB, and more options to recover if you miss long, left or right.

Pretty sure I've read the R&A put the tees up at 18, so it didn't play to 499. Those 31 yards may have been more like 50 or 60 yards.

And par and the shorter distance are not trivial, IMO. Virtually no pro's go to the 18th at Carnie thinking "I want to make a 5." They don't willingly make it a 3 shot hole. Even when they hit iron off the tee they expect to go for the green, probably with another iron, as Sergio did on Sunday. Not so at ANGC 15, which plays as a 3-shot hole for plenty of players. If they hit iron off the tee, no one would get home in two.

Pro's play ANGC every year. I don't recall 15 destroying the chances of anyone near the top. Seve, e.g., was still tied for the lead in 1986 after he holed out there. Yet in just two Open Championships, the 18th at Carnoustie has been a train wreck for one top competitor after another. Six players came there with a chance to win. Only one managed par or better. They played it in a collective 31 strokes. An average of 5.166. That would be pathetic on a par 5. On a par 4 closing hole, I bet that is unprecedented in the majors. I also bet it's a helluva lot higher than the guys challenging at ANGC average the last day.

« **Reply #47 on:** July 24, 2007, 07:01:43 AM »

Quote from: Jim Nugent on July 24, 2007, 06:28:06 AM

And par and the shorter distance are not trivial, IMO. Virtually no pro's go to the 18th at Carnie thinking "I want to make a 5." They don't willingly make it a 3 shot hole. Even when they hit iron off the tee they expect to go for the green, probably with another iron, as Sergio did on Sunday.

Not so. According to The Observer newspaper, which ran a feature on KJ Choi on Sunday he played 18 as a three shotter in each of the first three rounds and intended to do so on Sunday.

« **Reply #48 on:** July 24, 2007, 11:56:47 AM »

Disagree!

My criteria for a good closing hole on a major course is that it be a hard par. And TOC's is. Just because it says "par 4" on the card doesn't make it so, at least in the eyes of anyone contending for a major there. Think Tiger views it as a par 4? Doubt it -- to him and probably most any other major-league golfer today, that's a par 3, and it's a pretty good one at that. Requires three good shots for a 3 -- what's wrong with that?

(To me, 17 and 18 at TOC are truly bookend holes, and ought to be viewed as something along the lines of one continuous hole to end the round/tourney. Both are pretty good half-par holes. Ever see anyone make a birdie at 17 to move ahead/tie for the lead at an Open there? I can't recall one. Most often, dreams die there ((Watson 84, most notably).)

« **Reply #49 on:** July 24, 2007, 03:32:05 PM »

Quote from: Mark Pearce on July 24, 2007, 07:01:43 AM

Quote from: Jim Nugent on July 24, 2007, 06:28:06 AM
And par and the shorter distance are not trivial, IMO. Virtually no pro's go to the 18th at Carnie thinking "I want to make a 5." They don't willingly make it a 3 shot hole. Even when they hit iron off the tee they expect to go for the green, probably with another iron, as Sergio did on Sunday.

Not so. According to The Observer newspaper, which ran a feature on KJ Choi on Sunday he played 18 as a three shotter in each of the first three rounds and intended to do so on Sunday.

Mark, you found one example. Any others, I wonder, or is Choi the only one out of 150 or so golfers?

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