Truth alert.  If Bernhardt was sincere about building that model he would not have been in talks with Art Hills.

Mark,

Simply point out where I am wrong without insulting me personally.  Please tell me where the car analogy is off.  I have the desire to play in Europe...why not?  I do doubt that I will play anywhere where I am not a guest of a member since that is always the best way to go.  Looks like with some patience I will soon be set.

John,

I don't believe I insulted you.  I did offer an opinion on your opinion, however.  The car analogy is wrong in almost every way.  First, a round of golf or a visit to a golf club is not the purchase of an asset, it is a recreation.  Second, there is a "test of driving ability".  Most, if not all, clubs require visitors (unaccompanied) to be a member of a club and have a handicap.  The majority also require a maximum handicap.  IMHO the key thing here is not how good a golfer the visitor is (though it makes sense not to have 28 handicappers playing, say, Muirfield for speed of play reasons) but whether another club has accepted them as being suitable for membership.

Most importantly, however, it's not a lot of money.  Even a £150 green fee is affordable to the vast majority of golfers once or twice a year, if that's how they want to spend their money. There's no bragging rights associated with paying the green fee at Royal Birkdale or Sunningdale or Ganton.  It's not like, dare I say it, being a member of an exclusive Country Club or a golf club like ANGC which does require serious money, money, money.

I haven't got a great deal of experience of the US system but what experience I do have was tremendously enjoyable.  Great courses, kind and hospitable hosts.  On balance, I think I prefer the UK system because it does offer more opportunity toplay great courses and because clubs tend to be more about the sport than anything else but this is what I grew up with as a golfer, so I have a prejudice.  What I wouldn't do is criticise the US model without a great deal of experience of it, let alone none.

You have chosen to criticise, fairly robustly, a system you admittedly have no personal knowledge of.  It ill behoves you to get precious if people respond fairly robustly.

Quote from: Mark Pearce on July 16, 2007, 11:34:35 AM

Most importantly, however, it's not a lot of money.  Even a £150 green fee is affordable to the vast majority of golfers once or twice a year, if that's how they want to spend their money.

I would not pay that kind of money in my home country.  Isn't that almost $300.  note:  I do not take my clubs to Hawaii or Las Vegas.

No, it's a little more.  Remember, though, that the UK golfer paying that green fee won't have spent £20,000 on club dues.

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on July 16, 2007, 11:06:45 AM

I have never seen a restriction on who a member can share his course with.  I have been invited by people I have never met and invited people I have never met...It is a perfect system...and in many, many cases free to the guest.

Private clubs of any substance do not pay people to stand around and wipe your butt...many publics would be well served if they did..or at least provided proper clothing and deoderant.

I made some choices in life that have cost me the opportunity of being a member of every course I choose.  I accept that and now only belong at courses that fit my means and work ethic.  I could work harder and take more finacial risks and join more clubs but I am content where I currently stand.  Sounds perfect to me.

I would say the Brit and Irish system of getting on courses is very similar to buying a car.  There are many great cars in the market place and if you have the money you simply go buy it...people with more money buy more luxurious cars with more options.  There is no test of character, no test of driving ability or no test of status in the car community.  Money, money, money is the only factor...yuck.

John

I spose I understand your point of view.  It sounds like you consider offering strangers the option of a greenfee for the day  crass.  In a sense, you are right.  Nearly every club I have visited has members which complain about visitors clogging up the course and leaving it a mess - societies have this reputation.  I have complained about about this very thing, but I have always been one to think that I would like visitor numbers cut down at both my clubs.  However, I am very much in the minority.  I nearly always prefer playing a private course to a public one because I really like club atmosphere.  It is important to me and it does contribute very much to the enjoyment of the day.  

In these days of inflated green fees it is becoming an option for some clubs to cut down visitors.  At some point, the amount of money rolling in doesn't really help the club.  Subs are low and there is only so much to do and extra money just means it will be spent on unnecessary stuff or on maintenance that might not be necessary if there weren't so many visitors!  Of course, only a few of the big guns are in this position.  

Still there is a happy medium between no visitors and and being overcrowded with visitors.  For the most part, English clubs do it very well.  I don't recall ever feeling like visitors changed the atmosphere of a club unless there was a society there.  Many Scottish clubs are over-run in season with touristas and that is a putoff, but not so much that I wouldn't go back to many of them.  There are some places I am very reluctant to return to because I don't think they offer a great experience for the money - regardless of how good the course is.  I felt as though my money was all they were concerned with. This may be your concern, but not that many clubs are like this.  

Ciao

I agree with all of this.  Societies can be a problem but I believe it depends on the size of the society and the nature of its members.  I play in two societies who both have a meeting at the Berkshire.  One typically has 24/28 players and is made up mostly of members of what might be characterised as "good clubs".  I suspect the atmosphere in the dining room is pretty much as it is when there is no society, just busier.  The other is a very large society (over 100 players) and no matter how well behaved we may be it must change the atmosphere to have that many visiting golfers.  Most clubs with very large visitor numbers tend to restrict visitors to certain days, which members may tend to avoid.  Few Muirfield members, for instance, will choose to play on a Tuesday or Thursday out of preference.

Mark/Sean -

You are wasting your time attempting to have a rational discussion with someone who chooses (thru either obtusenss or orneriness) to deny the reality apparent to every one else.

Anyone who doubts there is a decent classic course that charges an initiation fee of at least $40,000 has lost all touch with reality.

DT

I agree with Tommy.  The weather over there stinks.

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting John K, he is a to my mind a very nice guy. We met at the first King's Putter at Barona Creek. In a ten minute conversation he was kind enough to invite me to golf with him at Victoria National if I came out his way. In spite of some of the odd tangents that John goes on, he is a good guy that I think most here would enjoy playing a round of golf with.
   Of course that doesn't mean I won't give him grief when he comes up with some of his outlandish ideas.

Let's face it - anyone who can find the time and money to golf is lucky.

And anyone who participates on this site is lucky.

There's degrees of everything, but no one is as lucky as me.

 

Tom,

My idea of a great semi-private club in the US that fits the UK model is Prarie Dunes.  I don't think you guys can hold a candle in the semi-private arena.

Brent,

Why do you think it is a good thing that you can play any course you want next month, doesn't that kinda take the specialness away.  Only half a lifetime to get on ANGC...I can wait as there are thousands of other great courses that take anywhere from a month to a year.  Part of the greatness of the American private course system is the hunt and privilage of the get...I know it is petty and vain but making it through those gates sometimes just pumps a guy up a bit.

It sounds to me like the Brit and Irish systems are the ones with bias towards the rich as all it takes is money and time and you play every course you want.

The interesting thing about this and I guess all discussion groups is that while we share some interests, in other areas we're significantly different.

This post of John K's helps me better understand his viewpoint.  He states that one of the areas he likes about the private course system in the US is the "hunt and privilege of the get."  I can not think of anything I like LESS than this.  While it may be possible, with single-minded persistence, to obtain an invite to play many private clubs in the US, I feel somewhat seedy doing so.

I live in Louisville, KY.  My boss is a member at Valhalla, which is a nice course that I can play four times a year if I want.  There are three other courses in the general area that I would like to play but never have: Louisville Country Club, Camargo, & Victoria National.  I don't know members of any of these.  I could probably find a way to play all three, but this would involve taking advantage of relationships with people just to fulfill this goal.  I would much rather just have the option of paying a higher fee, especially when that would mean playing with my friends instead of someone I didn't know who was doing someone else a favor.

I can understand why private clubs don't want to permit unaccompanied guest play.  I just don't see how this system works well for anyone but members of those clubs, those with connections, or those interested in trying to make connections.  I wish there was an easy way for private clubs to make distinctions between those just "collecting" top 100 courses and those genuinely interested in experiencing their club.  

For me, bringing the Muirfield model to the US would be great.  I'm pretty sure I would have the NGLA mailing address memorized by now.

Tom,

My idea of a great semi-private club in the US that fits the UK model is Prarie Dunes.  I don't think you guys can hold a candle in the semi-private arena.

John,

Without knowing the specifics of how Prarie Dunes works, I would consider a lot of the great UK courses to be semi-private, so that is a bold call to make!

If you ever do get a passport please come down to Sunningdale where you can experience this first hand and I might be able to change your opinion about how we do things this side of the Pond!!