I have played the Colorado Golf Club.  I am a medium long hitter, and the 16th hole does not quite work for me.  At 520-530 yards at high elevation, it is too short to bother with the narrower right landing area.  I hit a poor drve to the left side, and was left with 260 yards downhill.  A solid drive down the left side would leave a 7 wood or 4 iron.

The right landing area does leave a better angle into the green, which slopes severely from front left down to back right.  Also, you can drive it through the right landing area with a big drive, perhaps 310-320 yards.

It's a good golf hole, but I would always play it left, because it's safer, and I can still reach the green in two.

Regarding Kinloch, I play there regularly, and feel both #4 and #9 work, but the right fairway on #11 is irrelevant.

John Kirk:
thanks for your thoughtful reply. Is it wise to go for flag on the 215 yard 11th ? How are the second and third shots on the long 15th

thanks  

Geoffrey, I felt the wavy nature of the creek and tappering made the hole more difficult, mostly due to the visual deceptive nature.

Andy,

Thanks for posting the pics.  They help aid the discussion.

But, is it just me or does every course in Colorado get obnoxious with the fairway striping??

The only reason they would have pulled those posts are because they knew they were misrepresentations of the facts.  I simply and only disagreed with stating that a design flaw existed because after hitting in a hazard the hole seemed too easy.  I would have deleted such crap too if I thought I could get away with it.

Of course maybe their host read what they said and requested a deletion.

Mike,

Since we are now a closed site where only members can post do you think it is fair for someone who is an annointed expert in his field to make blatant misrepresentations of a course and not be called on the carpet.  I thought Noel defended himself very well.  His initial post said nothing of hitting the ball in a hazard...I think this is a vital point when saying you had a lost ball.  He did not even see the ball bounce and took the word of a forecaddie on where to drop.  I have played with enough forecaddies to know that 95% of their drop recommendations are crap.  Do you have any idea of the investment the owner and members of this course have made?  Don't you think they deserve to have someone question such loose standards of critique?  Do you think there is a possibility that Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw know more about design then Noel & Childs...Where is the harm in me asking for details and then getting them.

I personally have enough faith in both of them as people who believe in their convictions that I think they must have removed their posts out of courtesy to their hosts.  Noel stated right up front that he did not access the course through his rater status...so that only leaves the host route.

I had the pleasure of working at Colorado GC last summer and cannot say enough about the staff, owners, and members there. And in my biased opinion, the course isn't too bad either   A great place to get a foot in the door that I am appreciative of.

I guess I missed out on the action here about the 16th hole. I have not yet played the course, but experienced it in a very different way. I will say that the hole is much like the course in that you aren't going to figure it out or appreciate it to its full potential until you've been around the place for a while.

But I do like the idea of a split fairway par five where you can go for the green or lay up from both sides. It really eliminates the mentality of "this side is for birdies" and makes one plan their attack and improvise if need be from the tee.

P.S.- I guess my fondness for the hole come from spending the better part of the day push-mowing both fairways when the weeds were overgrown and the soil too muddy and recently seeded for a riding mower.

I'd be interested in hearing some impressions of the 12th hole. If I remember correctly from a tour I took while the course was under construction, the 12th green was going to be one of the least heavily contoured on the course (if I got my hole numbers right), and I'd like to hear some opinions from those of you fortunate enough to play it.

Kirk-
#12 green does have less contouring that other greens out there. It is rather large in size but bunkering short and a large downslope right penalize off line shots. The safest play is long on the fairway mowed approach to the 13th tee, if you can get it there on the 500+ yard par 4. Probably a nice break after the heavy grade of the 11th green and rest before the 13th & 14th greens.

Now I am really confused.  Noel said he hit his ball into a red staked area and then dropped his ball where the forecaddie told him and only had a 5 iron home.  I can't imagine red stakes anywhere on that hole except in the creek.  I can't imagine a private course putting them on the heather.  I thought one of the points of strategic design is that if you challenge a hazard perfectly you have an easier shot.  Hitting the ball in the hazard is as close to perfect as you can get.

John- I did not pull my posts for the reason you thought.. But I will put up my last one again.  Again, I saw my BALL cross the margin of the hazard (it was right at the right side of the bunker in that picture, I regularly carry 260 yards at sea level and that bunker is probably 300+ from the tee)and bound forward but since we could not find it etc, I took a conservative drop where it crossed over it and dropped.. And who bloody cares, I was not playing a tournament and perhaps I should have been Matt Wardian and hit 3 more balls from the tee to explore the options but then you would get on me for slowing the members behind me..  What is the purpose of this site then if not for frank observation?

John- you've trumped me on the anatomical reference.. I wish I knew what Darwinian adaptation brought about your witticisms since the moment you were procreated.

Have you seen this hole or played it, seen a picture or watched 4 people play it with both fairways being tested?  This isnt Victoria National and I've played plenty of split fairway holes in my experience to understand risk reward.. Nearby Pradera had 2 very similar split fairway par 5s.

Lets remind ourselves of terminology.  A basher is someone who strikes with a heavy and crushing blow and beats or assaults severely.  I have not bashed them nor the courses, just lent an opinion.  I think Bill Coore is a genius like I mentioned before and share the opinion for several other men who ply the trade and whom I will not mention but have had the pleasure of meeting.  A fad is a fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief time.  As long as Friars Head, Sand Hills, Bandon Trails etc are living breathing golf courses, C&C will always be renowned and praised--for the long run.

John my opinions are not dangerous ideas as you would have them hollowed out and viewed.  I have in mind that my statements are fact or opinions defended with evidence and argument but are free to be challenged by the collective of this website--including you.. Akin to peer review.. If I am full of hot air, I'll be exposed as an intellectual fraud or someone who knows nothing as such.  I am not a access whore or course collector, pseudo-journalist, self promoter etc- just a humble white belt in the world of golf architecture who thinks he has something to add and hopes his ideas won't be vilfied, censored or assaulted.

Why would you naturally assume that I didnt weigh the various scenarios of how the split fairway would play from different tees and different weather conditions?  Why base a critique on one time play any more than a naive member who never solves the riddle of how to play the hole after multiple play?

Being that I was there for one time, I had to decide which bits of the hole were essential and which options may not work best on first glance.  My first inclination was to try and find the subtleties of the hole lest I missed them since it did not strike accord with me.

The central theme of the hole is to pick a fairway.  I think it is interesting to ask how the hole would play under multiple occasions but I believe I got the "gist" from my one time there.

I refer anyone reading this post and your knowledge of golf architecture and your in utero connections to your prior posts for a fuller treatment on how to handle the incessant ironies of amateurs critiquing golf architects and their designs.  I think this is a generous gesture on my part BUT I see no reason to regret my choices for writing up my own views

Just wanted to let people know there's a Fox Sports Network show called Golf Life that featured Bill & Ben at CGC last night. might want to keep an eye out for re-runs.

It was on at 2 am, so I taped it, but haven't watched it yet. I don't know anything about the show itself, I've never seen it before.