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Matthew Hunt

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2007, 12:00:16 PM »
Matthew:

That's not quite right.  Colt had been a very good player in his day -- at least as good as Abercromby or Fowler, and certainly better than Simpson or MacKenzie.

This is in my RCD book, I will check it up but I think they were refering to 1914 and MacKenzie wasn't a big name then was he? I think it also states that Colt opened the way for others to follow.


Tom_Doak

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2007, 12:10:45 PM »
Matthew:

MacKenzie had done only a handful of courses at that point, and Abercromby did only a handful in his career, so I guess you could ignore them.  Simpson wasn't active until after 1914.  Fowler had done a few courses, however.

JMorgan

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2007, 12:23:35 PM »
Matthew, Colt made it to the semifinals of the British Amateur in 1906, along with two other Sunningdale members.  He was definitely a player.

Matthew Hunt

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2007, 12:36:28 PM »
Sorry got the dates wrong it was 1925. It says he was "arguably the first architect who was not a professional Golfer". It later implies that the Forementioned GCA's followed him.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2007, 12:45:51 PM »
Even reading all the above I think we can only speculate as to the real reasons but my ‘cultural’ explanation would go like this.

Braid Taylor and Vardon came from an era where you did your design work fast and took your money perhaps going back for a separate   fee.  IN Europe Colt set himself up as a contrast to this approach. He was the Solicitor and they were the prole’s, he could sit in board meetings and they took a one off fee. I can’t agree with Rich that pro’s were treated as anything like equals over here.  Late in life my father, who was a scratch player in his teens, said he would have considered turning pro if the people in Ireland in the 40’s didn’t look down on them. After all it was over here where Hagen chose to change shoes in the Car park outside the front door.

Money. I’ll post later Braids fees at Walton Heath (“Heather and Heaven” is at home), I think you’ll be surprised how high they were and how much time he was allowed off.  I conclude he was ambitious and very hard working taking endless trains to design new courses or collect fees for an enormous amount of exhibition matches at a time when he was already earning far more than his parents could ever have dreamed for him.  One of the surprises in the book is that he actively approached this new club for the position as he could see how much it could do for him.  All three also had the expertise of firms like Strutt & Co to see the projects through (I don’t know enough about the same period in the USA to know if  there were firms who could cover all the states). I believe Strutt and co were still working for many years after the 'old guys' had stakes placed in the ground above them.


The American pros by contrast didn’t have the same background and without that culture and support it wouldn’t have been an easy thing to get into.  It’s a mystery why they didn’t attach their names to local clubs though?


Just my thoughts ::)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2007, 05:35:38 PM »
As stated above it was Braid who approached the incipient new 18 hole club at Walton Heath for the position of being their professional. At the time he had won one Open and one News of the World Matchplay.

Despite the fact they knew he was keen for the job he negotiated/was offered the following package in 1904.
"The contract was for 7 years from May 1, 1904, and he would get £100 per year. In addition he could charge and keep five shillings per hour for teaching and three shillings and sixpence for playing with members.  He could be away 90 days a year, but not for more than a week at a time except for championships and only if he paid for a deputy." The book also states that the clubs from his workshops sold to members at a substantial premium over clubs sold in London stores.  

In short he was supplementing a good income by his exhibition matches and course design activity. We need a Tom MacWood to find a copy of his last will and testament, but my guess is that he left his heirs a tidy sum.


The player/designer was able to exist over here because railways were an efficient way of getting around a small island; you could get most places within 24 hours by using sleeper cars.  The same could not have been true for the US until aeroplanes in the 1950's?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Dan Moore

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2007, 06:49:50 PM »
I suspect the timing of when golf became popular in the US may have had a alot to do with it.  By the time the first US professionals came of age, let's say Hagen was the first real superstar among US professionals, the first golf boom of the teens and 20's was over due to the depression.  Hagen turned 40 in 1932 and was probably too busy as a professional golfer to pay any attention to design before that.  The second golf boom seemed to hit just as Palmer and Nicklaus were ready to branch out from playing and with the value/marketability of their names in golf's tv era it easy to see why they took off as designers.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2007, 02:52:43 PM »
Could this possibly have something to do with how they were introduced to golf? The US players Bob mentioned, to a man, came up through the caddy ranks; not necesarily the best training for laying out a golf course. It would appear that the UK contingent had more exposure to greenkeeping than caddying; surely this was more lucrative employment and a much better way to earn a buck than toting the occasional bag. Certainly Ross's work at Dornoch paved the way for his design skills.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2007, 01:50:40 PM »
There were huge differences in the sort of wages club professionals could obtain in the UK and while Braid might have done well at Walton Heath, the lot of many others was shocking.  They were required to attend to the members' needs at all hours of day and night.  Many were also required to be the greenkeeper.  A goodly number were also expected to help behind the bar at busy times - the only occasion when they were allowed inside the clubhouse.  many professionals' quarters were insanitary.  There were huge restrictions on taking time off to play in tournaments.  It was not a good life.

Around my part of the UK there are a great many courses designed by local professionals who have little recognition today.  Several are by Tommy Renouf, a Jersey contemporary of Vardon.  Renouf was professional at Manchester and also Stockport.

Who has heard of Eric Parr?  It seems he was the Professional at Blacon Point a one-time links course on the Dee Estuary lost during the Second World War.  He designed the early holes at Vicar's Cross, a pleasant course on the outskirts of Chester.

JA Steer is another about whom few know, but he was the first designer of Fairhaven, next door to Royal Lytham (later improved by Braid).  It was reputed once to have 365 bunkers!  He also designed Chorley.

Tom Williamson, professional, greenkeeper and clubmaker at the Notts Club, somehow found time to design a host of courses in the surrounding area, as well as dear little Coombe Wood adjoining the better-known Coombe Hill.

Tom Vardon, Harry's brother, Professional at Ilkley, designed several Yorkshire clubs.

George Rochester anyone?  He apparently designed Bamburgh Castle and Alnwick.

But you are right.  These things did seem to go in eras and as well as Vardon, Braid, Taylor there were also Herd, Compston, and other players of that era.  There seem to be many courses built prior to the War which have no record of a named architect, and that seems also to be true of even some quite recent courses.  For instance, at Davenport, quite a nice 18-hole local course built in the 1970s, the club has no record of who may have designed it.  When I wrote the Times Guide, fewer than 50% of the 2,500 clubs in the British Isles had any clue about their architect.  

Sean_A

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2007, 02:51:18 PM »
I think Tony and Mark hit on the right answers.  Also, one must remember that Britain did not have a tour like the US did at the time. The Brits scrambled around in exhibition matches and the odd tournament like the British Masters plus odd Opens.  The US pros would have had no time to design courses, they were too busy traveling and playing.  The British pros got time off from the club jobs for some events and to design.  I bet it would have been a real risk for an American pro to take time off from the tour to design because there was likely more money to be made on tour.  I don't think the lion's share of the money on tour was spread too thick.  

I think Bobby Locke is evidence that tour pros could do well in the States.  Locke came to to the States not long after the war and cleaned up big time!  What I think is the apt question is why didn't more guys playing in Britain get on the US tour?  Perhaps there were strict regulations about membership.  I think the PGA asked Locke to join after he kicked Snead's ass in a tour of exhibitions.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 06:18:08 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2007, 03:42:45 PM »
Sean

My understanding is that the US didn't really have a viable tour until the 1930's.  In the mid-late 20's, guys like Hagen made most of their money on exhibitions and other non-tour stuff.  And, as we know, until the King came along in the early 60's even the tour we had was miserly vis a vis the golfers purses, except, of course in George May's event.

Rich

Sean_A

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2007, 04:29:35 PM »
Sean

My understanding is that the US didn't really have a viable tour until the 1930's.  In the mid-late 20's, guys like Hagen made most of their money on exhibitions and other non-tour stuff.  And, as we know, until the King came along in the early 60's even the tour we had was miserly vis a vis the golfers purses, except, of course in George May's event.

Rich

Rich

I think the tour in the US more or less came about with Snead's rise - say '35ish.  The top guys earned good money compared to Joe Bloggs.  This earning potential was further enhanced because there weren't too many guys who were winning most of the money and they did exhibitions.  Now, compare this scenario with Henry Cotton, who I think is arguably the first modern type pro in Britain - meaning he didn't rely on a club job for his meat & potatoes.  Cotton travelled extensively in GB and Europe, picking up tons of minor European titles ( a sort of circuit that was not nearly as stable as the American tour) that didn't pay much as well as many various national Open titles.  In additiuon he won the Open and British PGA three trimes each.  Later, on the back of his successful exploits he became a well known archie - especially in Spain and Portugal.  He also wrote a weekly column for many, many years and this eventually led to writing several books.  The guy did it all, but so far as I know, he didn't die a wealthy man and I wouldn't have thought he did any better than top American pros despite his hard work and obvious talents.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill_McBride

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Re:Player/designers over there
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2007, 06:04:44 PM »
Has anyone asked another pertinent question - was there a "tour" in the UK where professionals could make a decent living as developed in the US?

As Mark mentioned above, the UK golf professional didn't do too much playing for money - he was a club professional when that didn't rank high in the social scale.  He usually was expected to be something of a clubmaker or repairer.  He many times supervised the greenkeeping operation.  And he might earn some extra money designing golf courses.

But it doesn't seem that the Fowlers, Simpsons, MacKenzies fit that mold.  But Braid, Vardon, Taylor, yes.