After a relatively nice first hole (for Pine Valley), two is a shock to the system.

This is a strange perspective as I think most would agree that #1 is a considerably more difficult hole. I don't have the scorecard in front of me, but I would bet it is among the 2-4 hardest holes on the course (handicap wise). Different strokes (no pun intended) for different folks.

Also, pay no attention to Mike C. about his claim that PV is as formalized and neat as a japanese tea garden.  (although do pay close attention to him as far as tree clearing is concerned).

Mike,

Yeah, but I didn't have to present to the board the next day...hope that went well.

Your suggestion is a reasonable one. I have the book in front of me, and while I can't make out how close the trees get to each hole, it's clearly a ways different than today.

Peter,

You're much too trusting.  

I've only seen and not played Pinehurst #2, a situation I hope to rectify before too long.

By way of explanation, I think it was indicative of Hogan's reputation for oral brevity that he seems to have omitted the word "obviously", as in "obviously great".  

Ron Whitten once commented that if Pinehurst #2 were built today it would likely go unnoticed.   While that might be a bit of overstatement, I would contrast it with Tom Doak's comment about Pine Valley being so obviously great "that even the colorblind can see it".

I guess part of it comes down to the visually spectacular nature of PV versus the placidly sedate and sleepy nature of #2, but there are probably much more playability similarities than differences between the two.

Mike C
Thank you for answering, even though it shows that my bonehead slip-up didn't go unnoticed.    Hogan's thoughts stayed with me today, I saw the thread about the Open in 2014, and then saw "Pine" and "2".....and, well, you can guess the rest.
But you turned a negatve into a postive - thanks
Peter  

If Pine Valley opened today it would be considered the best Fazio ever built.  Is there any dispute that the course as it sits today fits the Fazio template better than any other living architect.

John,

I think it's a humungous assumption that Tom Fazio could build a course as strategically and subtly great as Pine Valley from scratch.   I'm not even sure he would make that claim, despite some pretty ego-centric statements he's made over the years.  

His long-term exposure to the course has led to his creation of some pretty interesting and well-done efforts at imitation, from the Short Course at PV to World Wood Pine Barrens.

Mike C
maybe an unfair question, I think, so please feel free to ignore it, but:

which course do you think utilizes the sandy soil to best effect, especially in terms of bunkering?

Thanks
Peter

I don't want to highjack your quetsion, but I would say that a links course like St. Enodoc or Royal Birkdale have best used sandy soil.

Tim,

My point is that if the above hole was designed by a modern architect is there any question that it fits the Fazio template.  Who else works in that style?  Not a big fan of the "Hey look at me, I'm a perfect little bush" mentality of the visual construction.

Peter,

In terms of better use of sandy soil, particularly bunkering, I much prefer the interesting, raw tie-ins employed at Pine Valley as they were years back to the more formalized look employed by Ross at Pinehurst.

However, in a case of bad form following bad function, the decision in recent years to rake the sand at Pine Valley with heavy equipment (ala "Sand pros") meant that a driver had to be able to get around those areas and fit through neatly.   This led to the elimination of any natural scrub or flora living too close to another piece of natural scrub or flora, such that a sandpro couldn't squeeze through.   Thus, you're left with this wholly artificial look where, as John K. describes, seems to say "I'm a perfect little bush...look at me!".

It's horrible, and my pics comparing it to a Japanese Zen garden are pretty on the mark, or at least I haven't heard anyone yet say I've drawn an invalid comparison.

The real world is scattered and fragmented in a thousand variations that are not possible to create, even in the Faziofied world of our own imaginations.  

That's why Pine Valley's natural areas looked so good and natural before, and why they look so dainty and incongruous today.

Pine Valley #2 was transparently copied by RTJ for his 2nd hole at the magnificent Spyglass Hill.  He also modified PV #12 for SHill #4. (What does that say for Spyglass?)

In his article for Herbert Warren Wind's American Golfer RTJ drew Pine Valley and described it well along with the other American giants Merion, NGLA, ANGC and P #2.

Honestly that was pretty high praise he gave.

As for the real PV #2 it is one of those holes that you look at the card and say birdie chance and look at the hole and think about changing your Depends.  Tee to green and into the cup, one never gets a pass.

Overall, I personally object to the fairness bent and zenifcation of the waste areas as they come to resemble Fazio "Pine Valley Tribute Holes" that almost seem obligatory on his many designs.

I long for more penal sandy waste areas and the removal of perhaps 20,000 trees from the property (and about a thousand on the left of #12 ), but I have not yet been asked to chair the green committee, so it will remain just my preference, not a plan of action. So far the greens have not been tinkered with lately.  That Maxwell guy, however, did make a nice contribution in that area, I must say.

J,

I think all bushes grow naturally but some are either transplanted, planted or highlighted.  I see it all in the above picture.  I think it is funny that you think the hand of God, or a bird with a sour stomach, created the waste areas as we see them today.

Are the waste areas even in play for anything but a poor shot?  Eight ot eighty so to speak.

So - do you think Thompson used PV #2 as inspiration for Highlands Links #4 (at least the approach)?

J,

I feel like I need to more than like the course.  I love penal golf and history and exclusive so I'm alread firmly in the like camp.