[Mike_Cirba]

Jim, Jim, Jim...  

It was great to see you the other night, but I bet you were about as happy as I was when the alarm clock went off the next morning!  

To answer your question, I believe  I'm a reasonable man, and I'm not one who suggests that Pine Valley should be given a raw GI recruit haircut to the bare bones.

I think it's very possible to achieve both the "splendid isolation" that Crump suggested, as well as making the course incredibly visually spectacular as it was in the early days, letting some wind flow through the property, and introducing some really gnarly strategic choices in escaping from trouble that is far more exciting than a chip out to  the fairway.

I'd start with the 1925 aerials on pages 53 and 66 from Geoff Shackelford's "Golden Age of Golf Design" as a goal.

It looks like the best course I've ever seen and I'd really love to see it again.  

[SPDB]

After a relatively nice first hole (for Pine Valley), two is a shock to the system.

This is a strange perspective as I think most would agree that #1 is a considerably more difficult hole. I don't have the scorecard in front of me, but I would bet it is among the 2-4 hardest holes on the course (handicap wise). Different strokes (no pun intended) for different folks.

Also, pay no attention to Mike C. about his claim that PV is as formalized and neat as a japanese tea garden.  (although do pay close attention to him as far as tree clearing is concerned).

[Tommy Williamsen]

After a relatively nice first hole (for Pine Valley), two is a shock to the system.

This is a strange perspective as I think most would agree that #1 is a considerably more difficult hole. I don't have the scorecard in front of me, but I would bet it is among the 2-4 hardest holes on the course (handicap wise). Different strokes (no pun intended) for different folks.

This may be a consequence of score.  I have parred #1 each time I have played it.  I have yet to par #2.

[JESII]

Mike,

Yeah, but I didn't have to present to the board the next day...hope that went well.

Your suggestion is a reasonable one. I have the book in front of me, and while I can't make out how close the trees get to each hole, it's clearly a ways different than today.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Yeah, but I didn't have to present to the board the next day...hope that went well.

Your suggestion is a reasonable one. I have the book in front of me, and while I can't make out how close the trees get to each hole, it's clearly a ways different than today.

You should have seen the "reasonable" suggestions I made to the board the next day.   We're restoring the hospital and all the medical and computer equipment to 1920 standards.  

Seriously, it went well but I pulled that one from the deep rough.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

You're much too trusting.  

I've only seen and not played Pinehurst #2, a situation I hope to rectify before too long.

By way of explanation, I think it was indicative of Hogan's reputation for oral brevity that he seems to have omitted the word "obviously", as in "obviously great".  

Ron Whitten once commented that if Pinehurst #2 were built today it would likely go unnoticed.   While that might be a bit of overstatement, I would contrast it with Tom Doak's comment about Pine Valley being so obviously great "that even the colorblind can see it".

I guess part of it comes down to the visually spectacular nature of PV versus the placidly sedate and sleepy nature of #2, but there are probably much more playability similarities than differences between the two.

[John Kavanaugh]

If Pine Valley opened today it would be considered the best Fazio ever built.  Is there any dispute that the course as it sits today fits the Fazio template better than any other living architect.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike C
Thank you for answering, even though it shows that my bonehead slip-up didn't go unnoticed.    Hogan's thoughts stayed with me today, I saw the thread about the Open in 2014, and then saw "Pine" and "2".....and, well, you can guess the rest.
But you turned a negatve into a postive - thanks
Peter  

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

I thought it was a really interesting, if unintended contrast.  Both courses were built in rolling, pine-covered sandhills, yet they are quite visually different.   Still, both have wide, forgiving fairways that ratchet up the challenge as one approaches the greens, albeit in markedly different ways.

It might be worthy of it's own thread.

[Mike_Cirba]

If Pine Valley opened today it would be considered the best Fazio ever built.  Is there any dispute that the course as it sits today fits the Fazio template better than any other living architect.

John,

I think it's a humungous assumption that Tom Fazio could build a course as strategically and subtly great as Pine Valley from scratch.   I'm not even sure he would make that claim, despite some pretty ego-centric statements he's made over the years.  

His long-term exposure to the course has led to his creation of some pretty interesting and well-done efforts at imitation, from the Short Course at PV to World Wood Pine Barrens.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike C
maybe an unfair question, I think, so please feel free to ignore it, but:

which course do you think utilizes the sandy soil to best effect, especially in terms of bunkering?

Thanks
Peter

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike C
maybe an unfair question, I think, so please feel free to ignore it, but:

which course do you think utilizes the sandy soil to best effect, especially in terms of bunkering?

Thanks
Peter

I don't want to highjack your quetsion, but I would say that a links course like St. Enodoc or Royal Birkdale have best used sandy soil.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,

I did enjoy Fazio's World Woods Pine Barrens course, but, in my opinion, it isn't in the same league as Pine Valley. So you could say I don't get Jaka B's comment at all.

Pine Valley a Fazio....no....unless you are talking about the Ransome course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

My point is that if the above hole was designed by a modern architect is there any question that it fits the Fazio template.  Who else works in that style?  Not a big fan of the "Hey look at me, I'm a perfect little bush" mentality of the visual construction.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy
no problem, hijack away; my question really shouldn't have been on this thread anyway. Mike had answered an inadvertent question of mine about Pinehurst #2, and I was asking whether he thought it or Pine Valley used their common sandy soil to better advantage.
Peter

PS - thanks, by the way. I'm going to look up St. Enodoc when I get a chance.

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

In terms of better use of sandy soil, particularly bunkering, I much prefer the interesting, raw tie-ins employed at Pine Valley as they were years back to the more formalized look employed by Ross at Pinehurst.

However, in a case of bad form following bad function, the decision in recent years to rake the sand at Pine Valley with heavy equipment (ala "Sand pros") meant that a driver had to be able to get around those areas and fit through neatly.   This led to the elimination of any natural scrub or flora living too close to another piece of natural scrub or flora, such that a sandpro couldn't squeeze through.   Thus, you're left with this wholly artificial look where, as John K. describes, seems to say "I'm a perfect little bush...look at me!".

It's horrible, and my pics comparing it to a Japanese Zen garden are pretty on the mark, or at least I haven't heard anyone yet say I've drawn an invalid comparison.

The real world is scattered and fragmented in a thousand variations that are not possible to create, even in the Faziofied world of our own imaginations.  

That's why Pine Valley's natural areas looked so good and natural before, and why they look so dainty and incongruous today.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Mike.
You know, I think part of my confusion last night (besides a fatigue caused by cutting back on coffee) was that my head couldn't really take in what my eye was seeing, i.e. I just couldn't really equate the pictures posted on this thread with Pine Valley. I'd been reading an article on PV from 1915 that had pictures so striking that I started a thread about the bunkers (and why they looked so good; hint, pine trees). I'm new at this, and all of this has been covered before I'm sure, but to a set of novice eyes, the changes you mention (in bunker maintenance practices) seem to have changed PV's visual character entirely.
Peter

[redanman]

Pine Valley #2 was transparently copied by RTJ for his 2nd hole at the magnificent Spyglass Hill.  He also modified PV #12 for SHill #4. (What does that say for Spyglass?)

In his article for Herbert Warren Wind's American Golfer RTJ drew Pine Valley and described it well along with the other American giants Merion, NGLA, ANGC and P #2.

Honestly that was pretty high praise he gave.

As for the real PV #2 it is one of those holes that you look at the card and say birdie chance and look at the hole and think about changing your Depends.  Tee to green and into the cup, one never gets a pass.

Overall, I personally object to the fairness bent and zenifcation of the waste areas as they come to resemble Fazio "Pine Valley Tribute Holes" that almost seem obligatory on his many designs.

I long for more penal sandy waste areas and the removal of perhaps 20,000 trees from the property (and about a thousand on the left of #12 ), but I have not yet been asked to chair the green committee, so it will remain just my preference, not a plan of action. So far the greens have not been tinkered with lately.  That Maxwell guy, however, did make a nice contribution in that area, I must say.

[JESII]

JK,


One thing I can tell you is that they are not in the least bit worried about highlighting a little bush...if there are bushes left in areas you don't think look appropriate it's because you don't realize the bush grew there naturally and they have just decided to work around it for one reason or another.


MC,

It's horrible, and my pics comparing it to a Japanese Zen garden are pretty on the mark, or at least I haven't heard anyone yet say I've drawn an invalid comparison.

Please spare yourself the embarrassment of justifying that position..."IT"S HORRIBLE..."?



About #2...other than the green, I don't see how this hole would stand out on this course, but the fact that it has for so many indicates I am missing something...but the green is the most amazing green I have ever seen, and by a wide margin. The course is full of really awesome greens that are unique, but #2 is in a class by itself.

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

I think all bushes grow naturally but some are either transplanted, planted or highlighted.  I see it all in the above picture.  I think it is funny that you think the hand of God, or a bird with a sour stomach, created the waste areas as we see them today.

Are the waste areas even in play for anything but a poor shot?  Eight ot eighty so to speak.

[John Kavanaugh]

I just looked up the pic of #2 in the Confidential Guide.  Nice.

[Dan Herrmann]

So - do you think Thompson used PV #2 as inspiration for Highlands Links #4 (at least the approach)?

[JESII]

JK,


I don't think the hand of god had much to do with the finished product other than the overall elevation changes. I think each hole was carefully sculpted out to the extent of the fairway bunkering...which is a wider shot than what you have seen yet...

I also do not think a single one of those trees/bushes you think might have been planted or transplanted onto the property were...highlighted maybe, but only to the extent that some others in a similar area were removed and the ones remainng were not.

Are the waste areas even in play for anything but a poor shot?  Eight ot eighty so to speak.

The vast majority of the sand area on the golf course is out of play for the single digit handicapper, but could provide some visual intimidation and maybe even psychological...So know you are left with these great areas of unkempt sandy scrubby stuff that swallows up the 20 handicapper and doesn't let him finish his round...don't let Cirba fool you, these places are no candyland, the 20 will still work hard to recover relatively unscathed, and the 5 will not be making an easy par or even bogey...

Is it a different, more forgiving, presentation than 10, 20 or 50 years ago? Absolutely! Is it for the worse? Only for some of the lunatics on here...

You'd like the golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

I feel like I need to more than like the course.  I love penal golf and history and exclusive so I'm alread firmly in the like camp.

[JESII]

You're needlessly playing hard to get John...this is one of those places you are allowed to praise without ever setting foot in the county...

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