Brad Klein's review of Erin Hills -- I couldn't disagree more

« **Reply #25 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:00:52 PM »

Now, that's mean spirited as well as inaccurate.

« **Reply #26 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:07:00 PM »

Quote from: Rob_Waldron on June 12, 2007, 04:58:50 PM

Maybe the course is too difficult for the handicap challenged. Brad has never considered himself an accomplished golfer. I am looking forward to playing Erin Hills in early August.

Have you ever played golf with Brad, Rob?

Regardless, I don't think he'd base his judgment any day on his personal struggles over any course.

« **Reply #27 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:11:40 PM »

Quote from: Dan Moore on June 12, 2007, 03:29:45 PM

Jeff,

Just to prove the idiots at golfclubatlas wrong they had the pin on the front of 10 on day one. It offers a pretty small target to hold the green from any distance (my wedge was repelled off the green when I pulled it a little left) but it worked and has more interest putting on the front with the various slopes than what is available in the swale.

Dan,

Actually I am one of the idiots.

When I played, I didn't think there was much room at all for pins anywhere but in the swale, which struck me as sort of dumb for a biarritz. I have never seen a pin in the swale of a true biarritz, and the swale at EH was sort of a bore. I still think that most of the time that's where the hole will be.

I think harsh, but thoughtful, criticism is a necessity in most subjects. I wish Brad's review had been more detailed, but the specific criticisms struck me as not only funny but pretty accurate. Does the Dell Hole look natural? It might be fun if they cut the approach low so we can putt it off the tee down the hill.

« **Reply #28 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:15:39 PM »

From looking at it I didn't think the back of 10 was usable but apparently it is too.

« **Reply #29 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:20:02 PM »

I've played golf with Brad twice - and the last time he was much better than previously. Yoga and golf lessons were a great combo for him! I doubt his game affects his reviews much either way. He is first and foremost a professional writer and tries to write to a high standard.

I really don't envy those who critique for a living. I am not sure there really are any standards guiding such reviews - and its a small business. That said, I kinda wonder why we are critiquing the critiquer here, although I am contributing!

We should focus on the review content -

Is the course full of awkward holes?

Are the bunkers too deep? Too hard to maintain? If not maintained, how does that affect golf?

Is there a place for a "Dell Hole" on a modern course and should it be shaped like a laptop computer?

Is the bye hole a gimmick? A worthwhile one?

Is it "Open Worthy"?

Did it open to soon (i.e., was it "open worthy"?)

And, of course, how were the cart girls?

« **Reply #30 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:25:41 PM »

I thought Brad's comments were more of a sound bite than a review. Like sound bites they were attention grabbing but lacking in detail. I trust he will write a full fledged review at some point where he says what is wrong with the routing and which holes he thinks were awkward.

« **Reply #31 on:** June 12, 2007, 08:09:29 PM »

I can hear the glass breaking as I type this

« **Reply #32 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:04:41 PM »

Chris,
With the early tee times we were unable to mow fariways or green surrounds either day of the qualifier. The grass was pretty long the other day when I mowed fairways and surrounds. When the surounds are just mowed you can putt from off the green and the ball rolls a bit more.

Jeff,
I would say that 50 % of the hole locations we cut on the 10th are on the front tier, with the other pins being in the middle bowl area. The USGA guys asked us to cut the pin on the back of ten on the practice day so players could see how long the green was. I am surprised that you find the middle section a bore. I have never played a true Biarritz, but I find a lot of pleasure in trying to get a ball close to a middle pin. Theres a lot of different ways to play a hole location into the middle valley, including laying up to the right top fairway which gives you a better view of the middle section.

Brendan

« **Reply #33 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:22:18 PM »

Quote from: Dan Moore on June 12, 2007, 05:25:41 PM

I thought Brad's comments were more of a sound bite than a review. Like sound bites they were attention grabbing but lacking in detail. I trust he will write a full fledged review at some point where he says what is wrong with the routing and which holes he thinks were awkward.

This has nothing to do with Brad, but I stopped my subscription to Golfweek. Basically, I prefer GCA and Geoff Shac for the many reasons, but starting with #1 Ran takes pretty pictures and can post 10 times as many.

Jason's pictures are more interesting to me.

« **Reply #34 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:39:28 PM »

FWIW, I loved reading both opinions of Erin Hills--at least those guys took a strong stand and defended their opinions. 99% of the time it seems the reviewer was just appreciative of a comped round and writes the same boring, meaningless crap.

Kudos to both

« **Reply #35 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:47:47 PM »

Quote from: Chris Cupit on June 12, 2007, 09:39:28 PM

FWIW, I loved reading both opinions of Erin Hills--at least those guys took a strong stand and defended their opinions. 99% of the time it seems the reviewer was just appreciative of a comped round and writes the same boring, meaningless crap.

Kudos to both

Please show me where Brad has defended his opinion.

« **Reply #36 on:** June 12, 2007, 10:36:33 PM »

The Erin Hills website has a section titled "The Making Of A Legend" and includes these quotes:

"...the mother of all golf courses."
-Michael Hurdzan

"It will be a shrine to the game of golf."
-Dana Fry

"one of the best five properties I've ever seen.
-Ron Whitten

Perhaps Brad Klein did take a cheap shot, but from where I sit, the architects stuck out their chins.

Mike

« **Reply #37 on:** June 12, 2007, 11:47:11 PM »

Quote from: Chris Brauner on June 12, 2007, 12:44:54 PM

The course was quite walkable (the tournament committee put Irish flags to mark the walkways we needed to take to get to the next tee box), although we did receive shuttle rides from #4 to #5, #9 to #10, and #18 to the clubhouse. And what a walk! Just an inspiring place to play golf.

Chris, can you comment a little more on what you thought of the routing? Brad called the routing a mess in his comments, and you report that the tournament committee had to provide shuttle rides from 4 to 5, 9 to 10 and 18 to the clubhouse. I haven't been to EH yet, but that sure sounds like a routing problem. Were the shuttle rides due to overly long distances from green to tee, severe elevation changes to the next tee, or for some other reason?

« **Reply #38 on:** June 12, 2007, 11:49:22 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 12, 2007, 09:47:47 PM

Quote from: Chris Cupit on June 12, 2007, 09:39:28 PM
FWIW, I loved reading both opinions of Erin Hills--at least those guys took a strong stand and defended their opinions. 99% of the time it seems the reviewer was just appreciative of a comped round and writes the same boring, meaningless crap.

Kudos to both

Please show me where Brad has defended his opinion.

John

Clearly Chris means 'stated' rather than 'defended'.
I am arguably culpable of being pedantic on this site, occasionally, but my goal has usually been some kind of deference to the English language.

What is your point here?

Are you suggesting Brad should defend his article? I surely hope not.

« **Reply #39 on:** June 12, 2007, 11:56:43 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd_Cole on June 12, 2007, 11:49:22 PM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 12, 2007, 09:47:47 PM
Quote from: Chris Cupit on June 12, 2007, 09:39:28 PM
FWIW, I loved reading both opinions of Erin Hills--at least those guys took a strong stand and defended their opinions. 99% of the time it seems the reviewer was just appreciative of a comped round and writes the same boring, meaningless crap.

Kudos to both

Please show me where Brad has defended his opinion.

John

Clearly Chris means 'stated' rather than 'defended'.
I am arguably culpable of being pedantic on this site, occasionally, but my goal has usually been some kind of deference to the English language.

What is your point here?

Are you suggesting Brad should defend his article? I surely hope not.

Speaking of deference to the English language. Do you call the following an article? I surely hope not. (It is nothing more than a bad joke in poor taste to the lead architects and owner, possible fitting to Whitten's effort...but even that I doubt.) In all seriousness...when does a comment become an article?

Errant Hills Award: Erin Hills, Hartford, Wisc. A much-ballyhooed new co-design of Golf Digest architecture editor Ron Whitten and professional designers Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry. Too bad it opened a season early in late 2006, though inadequate fescue turf cover is the least of this sprawling daily fee’s problems. The U.S. Golf Association heralds it as a likely future U.S. Open site, but the routing is a mess, in large part because Whitten insisted on moving no dirt at all – thereby taking trendy “minimalism” to its absurd extreme. The raw site is great, but half a dozen holes are inexcusably awkward and much of the bunkering is overexcavated and unmaintainable. The 593-yard par-5 10th hole offers a blind, fall away Biarritz green; the short par-4 second putting surface ends before it begins; and the completely blind par-3 seventh “Dell Hole” plays up and over to the bottom of a vast taco shell. They should have thought “inside the bun” on this one.

« **Reply #40 on:** June 13, 2007, 12:08:58 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd_Cole on June 12, 2007, 11:49:22 PM

Are you suggesting Brad should defend his article? I surely hope not.

Lloyd,

No, I don't think Brad should have to defend what I would call a joke. In this post Imus world I don't think he should apologize either. It's just entertainment and is sometimes best left alone to steam until the stink is gone.

« **Reply #41 on:** June 13, 2007, 12:11:22 AM »

Quote from: Mike_Erdmann on June 12, 2007, 11:47:11 PM

The tournament committee had to provide shuttle rides from 4 to 5, 9 to 10 and 18 to the clubhouse. I haven't been to EH yet, but that sure sounds like a routing problem. Were the shuttle rides due to overly long distances from green to tee, severe elevation changes to the next tee, or for some other reason?

When the Committee provides rides at a USGA-sanctioned event, that to me is a startling admission about the routing.

I played it once and thought it was virtually unwalkable for all the reasons you cite Mike.

« **Reply #42 on:** June 13, 2007, 01:26:14 AM »

What is the connection between Doak and the current routing? A tid bit..

"Lang is a self-made businessman with a construction company in Delafield and a calendar/greeting card company he sold in 2003. He intended to build a 9-hole golf course for family and friends. In 1999, a friend told him about some land near Holy Hill. Little did Lang know at the time that renowned golf course architect Tom Doak two years earlier had designed a course on that site for some local investors, but the deal fell apart."

It has been said that Lang simply mowed out the routing for a while and played to temporary pins...was this the Doak routing as it seems to be before HF&W were hired? How much Doak currently exists?

If you want to see some polychromatic pics: http://www.erinhills.com/

« **Reply #43 on:** June 13, 2007, 02:34:10 AM »

Will the USGA offer three shuttle rides for the players and caddies at Oakmont this week?

Let's get this straight. An all-world piece of property, and the course is deemed too difficult to walk for tournament contestants in three places?

Unacceptable. A great course MUST be completely walkable, period. No exceptions.

Jason Blasberg's pictures look terrific. It looks beautiful and challenging. I want to play it. But if it can't be walked, it's not great.

And this is after Ron Whitten specifically knocked Ballyneal's walking only philosophy. In his review, he questioned the wisdom of disallowing carts. Ballyneal is an easy walk, with short, logical green to tee walks. Erin Hills is using shuttles for tournaments.

All great Golden Age courses are walkable. The same holds for modern courses.

« **Reply #44 on:** June 13, 2007, 02:38:12 AM »

John:

I was enjoying reading this thread after spending the day with Brad Klein and others in Bandon, and then you had to drag my name into it.

The routing that I'd done for Erin Hills was mowed out for a while. I don't know if Bob Lang ever saw that. He did interview me for the job, but I gotthe impression he needed to hire his own man, and he and Mike Hurdzan (both former Green Berets) hit it off, and that was that.

There is only one hole on the current course which is much like a hole on my routing -- the ninth. Several holes are sort of backwards from my routing, which is probably just a function of having certain corridors of visibility. Did Ron and Mike Hurdzan see my routing and try NOT to do it that way? I don't know. But their routing is way different.

Brad can defend his comments, if he so chooses. I haven't commented on the course because anything I say would be taken by some as "sour grapes" because I didn't get the job, and I don't need to get into that debate.

Of all the comments here, I understand Neal Meagher's least of all. He seemed to be saying that most golf coursse will be tweaked over time and get better and you shouldn't expect too much right out of the blocks. We aim higher than that. If you've got to go back and rebuild bunkers and rebuild greens, then the original architect didn't do that great of a job.

« **Reply #45 on:** June 13, 2007, 05:17:49 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on June 13, 2007, 02:38:12 AM

I haven't commented on the course because anything I say would be taken by some as "sour grapes" because I didn't get the job, and I don't need to get into that debate.

Of all the comments here, I understand Neal Meagher's least of all. He seemed to be saying that most golf coursse will be tweaked over time and get better and you shouldn't expect too much right out of the blocks. We aim higher than that. If you've got to go back and rebuild bunkers and rebuild greens, then the original architect didn't do that great of a job.

Tom,

Not 100% sure but this falls close to the GCA Double Standard rule. Maybe we need a proxy in the bylaws for the statement, "I am not going to comment BUT here is my comment."

« **Reply #46 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:03:30 AM »

Quote from: Eric_Terhorst on June 13, 2007, 12:11:22 AM

Quote from: Mike_Erdmann on June 12, 2007, 11:47:11 PM

The tournament committee had to provide shuttle rides from 4 to 5, 9 to 10 and 18 to the clubhouse. I haven't been to EH yet, but that sure sounds like a routing problem. Were the shuttle rides due to overly long distances from green to tee, severe elevation changes to the next tee, or for some other reason?

When the Committee provides rides at a USGA-sanctioned event, that to me is a startling admission about the routing.

I played it once and thought it was virtually unwalkable for all the reasons you cite Mike.

It's very walkable. The routing is serpentine and so it does twist and turn a bit. I found it far more walkable, for instance, than the Plantation Course. It has about 4 walks similar to the walk between 14 and 15 at Bethpage Black and it has many others of far less length. It's funny but the course appears to be anything but "minimalistic" because everything is on such a huge scale. The features are all bold and in some places you think they must have been shaped. The Biarritz green for instance.

I think EH has overstated their case a bit via the PR and placed an over emphasis on "minimalism" and I think they are getting some flack for that. I also think EH will be hosting a US Open in about 12 years.

However, if this course were designed by Gil Hanse and opened in Valentine NE we'd all be hailing it as the next Sand Hills.

Trust me on this one . . . this course is really good. It's really bold and it's really fun to play if you have an avid imagination and some patience.

« **Reply #47 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:14:23 AM »

Quote from: JKBlasberg on June 13, 2007, 07:03:30 AM

Trust me on this one . . . this course is really good. It's really bold and it's really fun to play if you have an avid imagination and some patience.

I'm picturing something like a Wisconsin version of Tobacco Road. Walkable but the routing definitely slows down the pace of play for walkers. Bold and imaginative but perhaps bordering on over the top on at least a few holes. Generates a love it or hate it sort of response.

Has anyone played bother Erin Hills and the Road?

« **Reply #48 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:19:02 AM »

Quote from: Brent Hutto on June 13, 2007, 07:14:23 AM

Quote from: JKBlasberg on June 13, 2007, 07:03:30 AM
Trust me on this one . . . this course is really good. It's really bold and it's really fun to play if you have an avid imagination and some patience.

I'm picturing something like a Wisconsin version of Tobacco Road. Walkable but the routing definitely slows down the pace of play for walkers. Bold and imaginative but perhaps bordering on over the top on at least a few holes. Generates a love it or hate it sort of response.

Has anyone played bother Erin Hills and the Road?

Brent, I think it's fair to say that you could draw some comparisons. I've played both, loved both but would give EH a significant nod on the merits. They will both elicit strong comments.

« **Reply #49 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:41:47 AM »

Quote from: JKBlasberg on June 13, 2007, 07:03:30 AM

However, if this course were designed by Gil Hanse and opened in Valentine NE we'd all be hailing it as the next Sand Hills.

If we are going to be honest here, I must admit that I'm pumped up about the place because of the involvement of Dana Fry. The people who sit outside the circle looking in don't understand the great work he has done.

News:

Adam Clayman

Jeff_Mingay

Jeff Goldman

Dan Moore

Jeff_Brauer

Dan Moore

cary lichtenstein

Brendan Dolan

Mike Sweeney

Chris Cupit

John Kavanaugh

Mike Hendren

Mike Erdmann

Lloyd_Cole

John Kavanaugh

John Kavanaugh

Eric_Terhorst

John Kavanaugh

John Kirk

Tom_Doak

Mike Sweeney

Jason Blasberg

Brent Hutto

Jason Blasberg

John Kavanaugh