[Doug Wright]

Kalen,

Fine report and photos. I have played Lakota once and generally agree with your analysis. It is a fun course to play with a terrific routing on a very difficult site--Jim Engh's specialty. I liked the greens there, and you probably would like them more if they were up to speed. There is definitely a repetitiveness to the downhill tee shots and to the bowl greensites there, however. I really liked #4, #8, #12, #16 and #17. There was some rather heated discussion about #18 on here awhile back. I didn't really like the hole, thought it was really too difficult for all but the single digit 'cappers and the 2d shot options were not that good. What did you think? Also how does Lakota stack up vs Redlands Mesa (which I haven't played) in your opinion?

[Tim Pitner]

Any thoughts on why Engh uses the "squiggly" or "muscle" bunker shape so much?  Is there some particular inspiration for it?  Has it become his trademark?  Is there a maintenance rationale for it?  Other reasons?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Fine report and photos. I have played Lakota once and generally agree with your analysis. It is a fun course to play with a terrific routing on a very difficult site--Jim Engh's specialty. I liked the greens there, and you probably would like them more if they were up to speed. There is definitely a repetitiveness to the downhill tee shots and to the bowl greensites there, however. I really liked #4, #8, #12, #16 and #17. There was some rather heated discussion about #18 on here awhile back. I didn't really like the hole, thought it was really too difficult for all but the single digit 'cappers and the 2d shot options were not that good. What did you think? Also how does Lakota stack up vs Redlands Mesa (which I haven't played) in your opinion?

Hey Doug,

I really liked the hole and I thought the tee shot was nothing short of exhilirating. I'm a big fan of unique quirky holes and I think this one fit that description in my mind.

I will agree with Andys take in that the layup to that 2nd fairway is fairly tough.  One of the things that wasn't apparent until I played the hole, is that one can just layup to end of the first fairway and from there its only about 145 yards up the hill to the green.  So you don't have to go out to that other fairway if you don't want to.

All that being said, the hole does offer a better view when you have finished playing it, than it does when you are down on that first fairway and the 2nd fairway and green are mostly blind.  The biggest shame in my mind is that in a few years the entire right side of that hole will be filled up with homes.  I really didn't go much into that during my initial take of the course as it was pretty obvious from the pics that they are there on most of the back 9. But at least they are well back from the course and never really come into play.

[Jerry Kluger]

I haven't played the course but it does look like a whole lot of fun to play and I really like #8 - the challenge of the fairway pot bunkers and then the angle to the green versus the slope off the side of the hill - that front bunker running sort of lengthwise is something that Engh has employed elsewhere and I really like it.  Matt doesn't like the containment aspect that Engh uses but I think it works and is another way of dealing with situations involving rough terrain.

[Kalen Braley]

Any thoughts on why Engh uses the "squiggly" or "muscle" bunker shape so much?  Is there some particular inspiration for it?  Has it become his trademark?  Is there a maintenance rationale for it?  Other reasons?

Hey Tim,

You know I really didn't mind the muscle bunkers from a visual perspective.  The interesting thing about them is when you see them from the tee box or from back in the fairway, you can't see the bottoms of them, just the rolly pollys that I called "babysbums".  I'd have to say it was their unique nature that kept me intrigued.  But if I played them more often or on a regular basis I might have a different opinion.

From having been in a few of them, they really are a crap shoot of sorts.  If you are stuck in one of the small squiggly parts, then yes you can be pretty well screwed.  But if you get in the middle flat portion, then they are pretty simple to get out of.

As to why Engh uses them, you would have to ask him, but my guess would be due to the templatized nature of them.  I would think its a trademark of sorts, because no other designer comes to mind with those types of bunker shapes.

Maintainence-wise I would imagine they are a nightmare because the faces on them are very steep.  I noticed where a couple of the faces had slid into the bunker and they had been rebuilt.  It seems they would also be very difficult to get a mower on.  Lastly, and I don't know why this was, but the grass was very thin and splotchy on the steep faces.  Perhaps they are tough to irrigate and/or fertilize to keep the grass thick on the steep faces but there are many others in here would are qualified to tell you whats going on.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Kalen,

First off, thanks for taking the time to post the pics and review. As you are aware, I was there two weeks prior to you and also mixed in a trip to Redlands Mesa.

Regarding Lakota:

After three weeks of digestion, the one thing that stands out in my mind is the severity of the land. There almost too many occasions where a completely misplayed shot actually helped you out more than a slight mishit. Call it an over abundance of luck. For example:

#3 With the hole cut in the back of the green, my tee shot was struck well but I totally overclubbed (by 25 yards). The result? The ball bounded off the back of the puchbowl (through the rough) and nestled to three feet.

#4 With my tee shot well hooked (I'm lefty), I go from OB to catching a turbo off the side of a hill and now have a chance to get home in two.

#5 Another shrimp results in another turbo boost easily gaining me another 60 yards when I should have been hitting 3 from the tee.

#6 Finally a straight drive (or so I thought) that went through the fairway onto the mountainside (30 feet into the rocks) and back in the fairway, which led to yet another overclubbed approach that found the back of the punchbowl and trickled down to 6 feet. I literally should have made a quad, but somehow lucked into birdie. I consider that an enormous margin of error. (Side note: My partner hit the fairway, then a barely missed an approach shot to the left that kicked him back into the ravine. He was ready to kill me.)

#7 A horrible fanned 3iron kicked 25 yards right and put me on the green.

#8 A well struck but a bit left tee shot hit the rocks left of the cart path and bounced, you guessed it, right on the green.

Now, I enjoy a touch of luck, rub of the green or whatever you want to call it. However, my playing partner managed his game much better than I, and was getting mutilated by the time we walked off of 8 green.

In a weird way it reminded me of a US Open: Miss a little and pray, miss a lot and get lucky.

[Kyle Henderson]

My family has a reunion every year on a ranch owned by my father's cousin which is only about 15 inutes away from from the course, so I've had the opportunity to play it under a variety of conditions.

Based of those experiences, I will say that I love the course and most definitely put it in league with Black Mesa, although I would rank it just behind its New Mexico brethren.

I love, love, love this course!

But if I were to nit pick:
-The bowled greens are definitely monotonous and artificial in appearance. I shot the best score of my life on this course (69 from the tips... at a time when my scores were generally hovering around 80) because the bowls were trimmed such that every pulled or pushed wedge shot ran right into the center of the green and I never had more than a 20-foot putt.

-While it's fun to blast a tee shot downhill in the thin air at 7000 feet, a big hitter will never have to pull a long iron. In fact, I find that I can get closer to the greens off of the tee from the tips than the blue tees in many cases, because the added elevation of those tees more than offsets the extra distance when the fairways are dry.

-The course is too difficult for beginners. It took 6 hours to get my mother around the course when it was completely empty, and she's not a slow player.

In any event, anyone passing near Aspen/Glenwood Springs should definitely set aside time to play this gem. I can't wait for Engh to finish his project in Napa, CA so I can taste his handywork more than once a year.

[Andy Troeger]

Wyatt,
I agree with your sentiment that a lot of pretty bad shots turn out ok at Lakota. The thing I noticed is that there is usually a side you can miss on and have it come back, and a side that's more or less death. I think it would be fun to play the course a few times knowing where you can get those good bounces and where not.

Matt,
I actually birdied #8 after the semi-topped tee shot and an 8-iron off the left bank that just about went in for a 2!  

Three times up and down would have me down for the count!

Pretty well agree with your comments on the course. I think #4 stands out even more because its about the only uphill par five I've seen Engh do between these courses and Pradera & Tullymore. Its a good one, as is #5 going back down.

Doug,
I'm going to keep you in suspense on the Redlands/Lakota comparison until we get the Redlands thread up!

[Andy Troeger]

Kalen,

How did Engh create so many down hill holes?  Are there any uphill holes that have similar elevation changes?

For a course that gets a "Doak" rating between 7 and 8 there seems to be a lot of neutrals and even a thumbs down.  I see your logic for trying to fit it in that range, but how do you reconcile such a high rating for a course with that many things that don't wow you?

Just based on the pictures I have seen, if Lakota is a 7 or 8 then Black Mesa must be a high 9 or 10.  But again that is just based on photographic evidence.  

Thanks for the look though.  The next time I'm in Colorado, I will try to fit it in if I have the opportunity.

Chris,
Do fit this one in if you have the chance, and Redlands Mesa. They are about as far away from the Indy public courses as you can get in style

In general, the first four holes head somewhat uphill with the rest of the front nine coming back down. The first four on the back nine head down, with the last four coming back up.

With that said, Engh likes to make you walk up huge hills/cliffs to get to a few tees in order to create more downhill shots than uphill. #2, 4, 7, 14, and 16 are legitimately uphill holes, but far more are pretty steeply downhill.

I actually think Lakota is more similar in style and look to Paa-Ko Ridge than Black Mesa (although there still are differences in design style all around). The nice thing that Paa-Ko and Black Mesa have going for them over Redlands and Lakota is no housing.

[cary lichtenstein]

I did a fairly extensive thread on Lakota a couple of years back, in case anyone wants to read it, use the search engine, I don't know how to reference it

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry K:

I don't mind "containment" mounding -- whether it be on the greens or fairways when it is overly applied. There are time when Jim Engh -- as many architects are wont to do -- is overuse a feature from one layout to the next. If one has played only a few Engh layouts the tendency to really zone in on this aspect may not be so apparent.

I really like what Engh does -- the clear opposite approach to what you see with Doak. Clearly, some will opt for the latter and forget the former.

Andy T:

If you think Paa-Ko and LCR are similar in style and look then you may be still trying to catch your breath in climbing all the way back to the 8th tee. Completely different courses -- if anything LCR is more akin to Black Mesa minus the ponderosa pines that dot the Colorado landscape.

Kyle H:

Agreed on your concerns regarding slow play. Without diligent efforts by the staff the net result of slow play can make for a tme better spent on the practice range.

Tim P:

The squiggly bunkers that Engh uses are a great deterent to the better players who attempt to milk a bit too much dating do when playing. I can name plenty of superb Engh holes that uses this feature -- the 1st at Fossil Trace at greenside -- the 18th at Pradera in the fairway split zone, etc, etc. When you have narrow bunkers that are deep you add a great deal of uncertainty and risk to the equation. I only wish Engh had added such a feature to the 16th hole at Pradera.

[Matt_Ward]

I have to add one additional comment - although I did mention the dearth of good long par-4 holes at LCR -- the reality is that having such holes in the higher elevated areas of the country becomes quite demanding -- better to include five par-5 holes as Engh generally does in such situations and make the risk / reward elements become even more of an issue.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I should have been clearer in my comment, but note that I said I thought Lakota was MORE similar to Paa-Ko than Black Mesa. Its not all that similar to either one really, but to me its nothing like Black Mesa except for elevation changes and some crazy greens. They don't even look similar IMO. At least Paa-Ko and Lakota are generally the same colored landscape

If there's a comparison, I'd go with Redlands Mesa and Black Mesa. At least both of them have a mesa involved!  

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen / Andy:

Quick questions to be answered ...

Best hole at LCR is ... ?

Worst hole at LCR is ... ?

Best stretch of holes (three minimum) at LCR is ... ?

Worst stretch of holes (three minimum) at LCR is ... ?

Thanks ...

P.S. I will respond with my own listing shortly.

One other thing -- among all public courses you have played with a green fee below $100 -- where would you each personally rate LCR ? Thanks again ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Best hole: #18

Worst hole: #14 (#1 isn't great either, but at least its interesting in some way or another).

Best stretch: 2-8 (more specifically 4-6)

Worst stretch: I guess 12-14, but I still kinda like #12 & 13.

Among all public courses under $100...these five blow everything else away:

Paa Ko Ridge, Tullymore, Black Mesa, Redlands Mesa, Lakota Canyon Ranch. You could probably put them in just about any order you like.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen / Andy:

Quick questions to be answered ...

Best hole at LCR is ... ?

I'm going with number 18, lots of options, very cool

Worst hole at LCR is ... ?

1st hole, awkward tee shot, awkward approach

Best stretch of holes (three minimum) at LCR is ... ?

15 thru 18, no doubt about that one.  Altough 4-6 was very nice too

Worst stretch of holes (three minimum) at LCR is ... ?

No brainer on this one to me 12 thru 14

Thanks ...

P.S. I will respond with my own listing shortly.

One other thing -- among all public courses you have played with a green fee below $100 -- where would you each personally rate LCR ? Thanks again ...

Under $100, LC is number 1 on my list

[Scott Weersing]

Kalen:

Should I plan a trip to fly from Southern California to play LCR and Redlands?

Or should I fly out to New Mexico?

Is the course good enough to warrant a trip just to play LCR?

[astavrides]

Kalen:

Should I plan a trip to fly from Southern California to play LCR and Redlands?

Or should I fly out to New Mexico?

Is the course good enough to warrant a trip just to play LCR?

I would do New Mexico before western Colorado (its easier to get to from Socal for one thing), but they are both good.  

[Andy Troeger]

Scott,
I still haven't found any mountain courses out west that I'd pick over Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa. These two courses would be my next choice, but NM still wins. Granted, I'm a homer by saying that so take it for what its worth  

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Should I plan a trip to fly from Southern California to play LCR and Redlands?

Or should I fly out to New Mexico?

Is the course good enough to warrant a trip just to play LCR?

Thats the bad part to the location of these courses.  The nearest major airport is in Denver which is approx 3 hours away, please correct me if wrong Denver locals.  It was worth it to me to drive from the SLC area, which was about 4 hours away.

[cary lichtenstein]

Kalen:

Should I plan a trip to fly from Southern California to play LCR and Redlands?

Or should I fly out to New Mexico?

Is the course good enough to warrant a trip just to play LCR?

Thats the bad part to the location of these courses.  The nearest major airport is in Denver which is approx 3 hours away, please correct me if wrong Denver locals.  It was worth it to me to drive from the SLC area, which was about 4 hours away.

Actually there are airports in Grand Junction where Redlands Mesa is; Vail has an airport that is very close to Lakota Canyon and you can probably puddle jump to Abq, New Mexico to play Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge

4 really fun and excellent courses, all get high marks from both me and my wife.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Should I plan a trip to fly from Southern California to play LCR and Redlands?

Or should I fly out to New Mexico?

Is the course good enough to warrant a trip just to play LCR?

Thats the bad part to the location of these courses.  The nearest major airport is in Denver which is approx 3 hours away, please correct me if wrong Denver locals.  It was worth it to me to drive from the SLC area, which was about 4 hours away.

Actually there are airports in Grand Junction where Redlands Mesa is; Vail has an airport that is very close to Lakota Canyon and you can probably puddle jump to Abq, New Mexico to play Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge

4 really fun and excellent courses, all get high marks from both me and my wife.

Cary is right,

But the operative word there was "major" airport.  Often taking that extra small jaunt over to a small airport can add a lot of cost to the trip.  But then again with gas prices being how they are, maybe that isn't such a bad idea..  

[Doug Wright]

Actually there are airports in Grand Junction where Redlands Mesa is; Vail has an airport that is very close to Lakota Canyon and you can probably puddle jump to Abq, New Mexico to play Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge

The only way to "puddle jump" from Vail (Eagle County Airport) to ABQ is by private jet. There's no direct commercial service.

[Kalen Braley]

Actually there are airports in Grand Junction where Redlands Mesa is; Vail has an airport that is very close to Lakota Canyon and you can probably puddle jump to Abq, New Mexico to play Black Mesa and Paa Ko Ridge

I just looked up two flights that were two weeks out.

Salt Lake Ciy to Denver (both major airports): Round trip $179
Salt Lake City to Grand Junction: Round trip $679

Flying in to the small municipal airports are pricey...Ouch!!!!
 

[Scott Weersing]

Thanks for the feedback.

It does not seem easy or cost effective to fly to Grand Junction, CO.

 If I was to drive across the USA and play golf course along the way, should I take the I-40 route to New Mexico or the I-70 to Colorado?

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