Did he really compare himself to Michelangelo?

« **Reply #25 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:03:03 PM »

Tom, can you picture any architect, yourself included, who might say about a newly completed course that, "In all truth the course isn't very good. Considering the crappy terrain I had to work with, the constant funding problems and continuous ill-thought out design input being foisted upon me by the owner, I am amazed that it turned out anywhere near as well as it did."

Architects as far back as you can go have been their own biggest promoters. A great example of this was Tilly who, while constructing a new golf course, never said anything other than it was his finest effort yet and worthy of hosting a national championship. It was Tilly who advertised himself as the "Creator" and not designer of Baltusrol.

Whenever someone spends a large amount of money they want to believe that it was well-spent and that they bought the best. Isn't this the reason why nearly all architects and golf clubs so quickly joined in with RTJ Sr. in proclaiming their clubs as a so-&-so signature design?

The result of the need for superiority in product then naturally leads to criticism's and justifications. For example, a well-respected architect was recently quoted as saying that, "I could easily build a course with narrow fairways and flat greens, but why bother? You could hire Tom Weiskopf or Gary Player to do that."

Was that a critique for their work or a means of praising one's own superiority? Personally I think it was simply a statement about stylistic differences and was not intended as a sign of disrespectful criticism. Yet others might both feel and use it in a different fashion.

I, too, feel for architects and the positions they find themselves placed in when having to comment either about their own or other's courses.

« **Reply #26 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:14:14 PM »

Greg Norman routinely implies that his 2 majors and 19 Tour wins puts him in the same class as a golfer as Tiger Woods and his 12 majors and 57 tour wins (and counting). Why should it surprise anyone if he thinks his artistic achievements put him alongside Michelangelo? The man's capacity for inflating his own accomplishments is on an epic scale.

« **Reply #27 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:24:17 PM »

How many worldwide wins did GN have though?

« **Reply #28 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:28:39 PM »

Maybe for golf architect's quotes about a new course, it should be something like registering a horse's name.

You can't use a name/quote/idea twice.

I have some recollection that Coore and/or Crenshaw had already used the idea of '180 holes and finding the best 18' for Sand Hills. Maybe someone previously used that as well.

How about " God only created 9 good holes here, and we had to get to 18 somehow. That's why they hired me. "

« **Reply #29 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:33:27 PM »

This is just like authors supplying quotes for book jacket covers. There's actually a terrific first novel by Dave Eggers, a very literary sort, that is entitled, "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius". Tongue firmly in cheek there, but this sort of puffing and blustering is really just garbage, let's face it.

« **Reply #30 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:40:17 PM »

I just read an interview in a local golf magazine with Robert Trent Jones Jr. He gives tons of allusions to his works. He compares his landform and conouring to Japanese art, his view of signature holes to Rembrant's painting, and his "natural" view of the land to that of the Native Americans. He even gives an excerpt from his poem about Colorado...

After this he describes Fazio courses as a Lexus (marketable) and his own as a Porsche (unpredictable and wild). He says the bunkering at Bandon Dunes looks artificial and is incorrectly placed.

This was part of a promotional deal for his new course opening in the Vail Valley, which I am not that familar with. Is this just promotion or is there something more to this and RTJ Jr.'s personality that I am not aware of? Moreover, why do artists, and more specifically golf designers feel the need to compare new works to existing projects in a completely different fields. Sometimes seems like a little bit of a stretch. Ideally, shouldn't one's work "stand alone."

« **Reply #31 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:56:02 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 21, 2007, 09:17:58 AM

I feel for the signature architects who are required to produce quotes for marketing guys about their newest course, I really do. The marketers never have time to think up a pertinent question, they just ask you for "a quote".

But last week in the United Airlines magazine I came across this doozy in an advertorial for Greg Norman's latest Colorado project, Cornerstone, and this is what Greg had to say about it:

"Michelangelo once said, 'I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free.' It's great that we could just 'release' the natural layout here for a championship course."

Tom Fazio's latest is that his newest course is "As good as it gets." You can take that a number of ways, but you don't have to read nearly as much ego into it as Greg's.

That same exact quote was in ANOTHER course's website too...we had a thread on it...looks like a couple marketing teams may be cribbing from one another.

« **Reply #32 on:** May 21, 2007, 07:15:30 PM »

Michelangelo certainly had help, but make no mistake: anything that we look at today and say "Wow" is by him only. Producing a sculpture or a fresco entails many artistically lesser tasks and not all areas of a painting take the same skill.

That being said, some old masters had large factory-like shops and, as a result, quite a lot of output. Michelangelo, like many of the greatest artists, wouldn't indulge in that.

Ulrich

« **Reply #33 on:** May 21, 2007, 08:19:03 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on May 21, 2007, 10:37:30 AM

I'd like to assume that Norman didn't think up or say the line himself, that it was one of the marketing guys who thought it up and then put it in quotes. (He then took the rest of the day off.)

But if Greg DID compare himself to Michelangelo, I wonder who Nick Faldo would be. I mean, who was 11 shots better than Michelangelo back then?

Naw, actually, that isn't fair. Why not have a little more Barnum and Bailey in golf course architecture? (It goes particularly well with an Australian red.)

Peter

Peter -- while this may be true of the pair as golfers, having played Faldo's horrific "The Rock" in Muskoka, I must admit that Norman might be ahead in the design area. But neither have done much of note that I've seen.

As for the RTJ Jr. quote about the bunkers at Bandon being out of place, what exactly does that mean? And when did golf designers all start talking like Donald Trump?

« **Reply #34 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:14:14 PM »

Why believe a guy like RTJ Jr. when you have 1500 internet chatters at your disposal. Norman has more in common with the big Mic than most of you guys have with Art Hills...(random architect)

« **Reply #35 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:20:47 PM »

I thought he was Italian...

« **Reply #36 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:36:55 PM »

Golf Course Architects are always comparing their work to the famous golden agers so what's the big deal if a marketer went a little beyond?

« **Reply #37 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:42:55 PM »

Has the Michaelangelo Society approved of Greg Norman using this language.....

« **Reply #38 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:10:55 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on May 21, 2007, 09:14:14 PM

Why believe a guy like RTJ Jr. when you have 1500 internet chatters at your disposal. Norman has more in common with the big Mic than most of you guys have with Art Hills...(random architect)

John: What does that even mean? Glad to see you are back to spouting nonsense.

« **Reply #39 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:36:09 PM »

Just a sidenote about Michaelangelo, and marketing. There is a plastic surgeon here in Los Cabos, MX named Miguel.The name of his business is MIGUELANGELO. That my friends is good marketing.

« **Reply #40 on:** May 22, 2007, 12:26:01 AM »

In all of art my favourite quote is from Lou Reed. After the surprise success of 1988's "New York" the great one was quoted "Joyce had Dublin, I've got New York."

« **Reply #41 on:** May 22, 2007, 01:29:27 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 21, 2007, 09:17:58 AM

"...an advertorial for Greg Norman's latest Colorado project, Cornerstone, and this is what Greg had to say about it:

"Michelangelo once said, 'I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free.' It's great that we could just 'release' the natural layout here for a championship course."

From your statements, he is not comparing himself to Michaelangelo, but, instead, revealing an inspiring discovery in reverance to a notion of Michaelangelo's.

If one has ever seen "The Prisoners" by Michaelangelo, one can come close to understanding this notion of releasing what's in the stone. It's amazing and humbling.

« **Reply #42 on:** May 22, 2007, 02:28:34 AM »

John,

I was plowing (slow plowing) through Irving Stone's Michelangelo (in German), and he was not the guy to have others do his work. He did have some prep work done for one series of smaller sculptures...once (if I remember correctly). In the Sistine Chapel, he did hire a few of his buddies that were fresco painters...guys he started with under Ghirlandaio, only so he could get a handle on the craft. Then he closed the doors on them and did the job himself.

From all I could gather he was the producer of the work accredited to him; Paintings, bronze, marble, fresco's.

The sketches weren't art for art's sake but studies he usually destroyed after the jobs were completed.

The architect's quotes...they're smarmy. I think they serve as a good reflection of what the golf architecture industry has become.

« **Reply #43 on:** May 22, 2007, 04:45:01 AM »

I don't see what is so bad about Norman comparing himself to Michelangelo.

Norman once said he could have been a brain surgeon if he wanted too, so clearly Greg can be anything he puts his mind too.

Except a multiple Major winner.

« **Reply #44 on:** May 22, 2007, 05:34:40 AM »

Tom,

I recognize that being controversial has worked for you. The Confidential Guide was obviously a springboard for you and your success. However, I think you are part of the problem at Golf Club Atlas. When one of the leading designers in the game can take one quote from an airplane magazine and not be challenged on it, that is a problem. It is a problem because it keeps other architects from posting here because it becomes seen as the Tom Doak Fan Club.

Michelangelo was a painter, sculptor, architect, poet and engineer. As stated in Wikipedia, "he is often considered a contender for the title of the archetypal Renaissance man, along with his rival and fellow Italian Leonardo da Vinci."

I consider Norman to be a Renaissance man in modern life and golf. I remember watching him at Merion in 1981 when he first came on the scene here in the states. I can't remember where I parked my car yesterday, but I can remember Tom Watson being outdriven by this white haired kid from OZ on Merion #2.

He has been a compelling story in golf for years and now he has evolved into other areas including wine and architecture. I have played 3 of his courses at ChampionsGate and Wente. I probably can skip Champions National and I thought Wente and Champions International were a relection of his personality in a good way on a tough and flat piece of land. I definitely want to play more of his courses, and I read enough here to know that I probably need to go to OZ to see his better ones.

I have two friends that have played golf with Greg Norman and they have nothing but great stories of him in that one on one setting. Because he is a caring person, he occasionally has asked my brother-in-law who is a cardiac surgeon to "be around" when his friend Bill Clinton comes to visit in Florida.

You recently asked that the new GCA NOT PROVIDE a search function so that reporters can find some of your quotes in the archives, yet you post this thread. Tom, you are now one of the leading architects in the field, it is now time act like it.

« **Reply #45 on:** May 22, 2007, 07:52:09 AM »

I'll second that Mike, tough to describe my sentiments upon reading the opening post of this thread...

« **Reply #46 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:29:09 AM »

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on May 22, 2007, 05:34:40 AM

Tom,

Tom, you are now one of the leading architects in the field, it is now time act like it.

Mike,

Be careful what you ask for. The clearest way to act like a leading architect is to ignore this site. I myself was surprised how few people jumped on the Doak bandwagon on this one. I would even go so far to say that given the recent poor ratings many of Doak's courses have received that there is a slight anti-bias butt boy status. It has become cool to slam Doak...undeservedly so, I might add.

« **Reply #47 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:40:56 AM »

Quote from: Tony Ristola on May 22, 2007, 02:28:34 AM

John,

I was plowing (slow plowing) through Irving Stone's Michelangelo (in German), and he was not the guy to have others do his work. He did have some prep work done for one series of smaller sculptures...once (if I remember correctly). In the Sistine Chapel, he did hire a few of his buddies that were fresco painters...guys he started with under Ghirlandaio, only so he could get a handle on the craft. Then he closed the doors on them and did the job himself.

From all I could gather he was the producer of the work accredited to him; Paintings, bronze, marble, fresco's.

The sketches weren't art for art's sake but studies he usually destroyed after the jobs were completed.

Tony,

It is not well documented by solid in theory that when the church turned against Michelangelo the intellectuals pumped him up. They created a myth of bizarre early success by saying he created the Piata at 24 (much younger than the truth) and even went so far to say he lived to be 89 which is far outside the scope of reality. He became a Biblical beast of the intellectual factions that were questioning the role of intellect vs faith. Yes, he was a great artist and yes, he is responsible for the majority of the work attributed him....but this story of independence and painting the Sistine Chapel by himself is simply a good Hollywood storyline.

« **Reply #48 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:42:37 AM »

Sounds like everybody is trying to get something stirring here. I don't have a problem with Tom saying what he said. And I don't have a problem with Norman saying what he said.....I think it was Satchel Paige that said " if they aren't talking about you then you aren't doing anything."
I don't know why more architects don't post on here. I think it may be much easier to ingnore/slam/berate by saying I don't listen to that site....OK....
The big question is why doesn't Greg Norman respond?
Denny Crane once made a much bolder statement..."most have 15 minutes, I have had a lifetime".....and I guarantee if someone slammed Denny he would be on here in a second.....

« **Reply #49 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:50:05 AM »

I can't wait to read Norman's wife's testimony in the divorse proceedings about his real role in golf architecture....

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