[Matt_Ward]

If I hear one more time from TV announcers that "so and so player / group is now on the clock" I will simply laugh at such a statement.

Too often the people running the show (e.g. course administrators, tournament officials) talk the talk but never wak the walk.

In the case of professionals it's long overdue to cut all the baloney about enforcing slow play with endless warnings and the like and start to hand out two-shot penalities. No more warnings -- no more hand holding.

Start giving out two shot penalities -- and NOT only to the journeymen palyers -- if a world class pro in the top ten is doing likewise slap the same penalty on them with no less vigor. And if such actions are appealed it's time for the respective Commissioners to enforce what's been done on-site.

I can't wait for the annual crawl that is the US Open each and every June. You have people who think that lining up shots for several minutes is perfectly acceptable.

The game is now INFECTED with this mentality all the way down to the club and muni levels. Management at many places simply doesn't want to say anything less they offend someone. What really pisses me off is that when you clam up for the clear offenders because you don't wish to upset them you simply annoy the other players who are attempting to do their best to keep play moving.

If one can't play well -- then play fast. Unfortunately, too many clubs do nothing and mirror what the different tours are doing -- which is next to zero.

I watched countless groups this past week at the LPGA event in New Jersey and there were a number of players who were quick to their ball and ready to play -- sprinkle in just a few of the slowpokes and the whole show comes to a crashing halt. To say that Lorena Ochoa is slow is a complete error. She was ready to play -- it was the s-l-o-w crawl in front of her that was clearly apparent.

UMCC is a very easy course to walk and nearly all the tees are adjoining the following hole. People should be able to play the course easily in no more than 4 1/2 hours and I am being VERY gracious in allowing the play to go on for that long.

Administrators and course owners have allowed tournaments and respective courses to become what they are now. I won't patronize facilities that fail to move the cattle. I suggest others should do likewise.

[Alan Carter]

The wonderful topic of slow play, always a treat to chat about!!

The essense of the problem is a combination of many, if not all of the aspects of how golf has evolved in the past thirty or forty years.

I do agree with most of the comments that have already been made and I have had many a discussion with Bill Yates on all of the factors that effect slow play.  Many of these factors are in the owner/operators hands to control, but many of them lie within the state of where our game is today.

I am very much in agreement with many of you that the golf we watch on television is one of the biggest contributors to our problem.  Tour players hitting no more than 75 shots, playing in twosomes, taking 4 1/2 plus hours to play eighteen holes is just downright ridiculous.  This is the example being set for today's average player.  I wish that the network commentators would bring up pace of play more often during telecasts, but I'm sure that the PGA Tour would not be happy with that conversation.  We certainly do not hear about many players being penalized for slow play.  The occassional "On The Clock", but that is really about it.  It does need to be addressed on all of the professional tours.

The lengthening of courses, the distances between greens and tees, the amount of hazards, long grasses, on-course F&B offerings, green speeds and many more are all a part of our problem.  As owner/operators we can control tee time intervals, assure proper on-course signage, employ helpful proactive Player Assistants, control rough length, pin positions on busy days, make it a more important part of professional instruction and influence many other factors that can impact pace of play.  It is our job to take any and all steps to positively impact pace of play on our courses.  But, the underlying culture of just how the game is played needs to return back to the days when players simply took a look, set themselves up and hit the shot.  Not take a look at the shot from 8 sides, seven breaths in through your nose and out through the mouth, take three steps forward only with your right foot first, blink 4 times with each eye seperately and then step back and repeat the whole process because the wind changed before you hit the shot.  I don't see the PGA Tour changing anything anytime real soon, but it would be great to watch a rules official walk up to Jim Furyk on the 71st hole of the Players Championship with a one shot lead and assess him a two shot penalty for slow play.  Until they have the nerve to do something like this and take the issue by the throat, the average player is just going to think that this is what they need to do to play better golf.

Enough for now, I need to get bakc to work, but this is a topic that always hits close to home and manages to get each and every one of us on the edge of our seat.  It is a huge reason why the amount of people playing the game is declining and something needs to be done about it.

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree that slow play is a menace to the game but allow me to note a culprit that can cause a whole bunch of problems - the lost ball rule.  

My son and I were playing behind two ladies and they had two guys in front of them.  Our 3rd hole is a downhill par 3 about 185 - 200 yards with a stream in front and trees left.  One of the guys loses his ball in the trees - so he looks for at least 5 minutes for it, then climbs back up the hill and plays his third, then goes back down the hill to the green and putts out.  All the time the ladies are waiting and we are waiting behind them.  I'm sorry, but if that happens to two groups during the course of a round, it really backs things up.  Just as a side note, the guys let the ladies thru on the next hole, and then the guys quit after 9.  

That is one rule that definitely contributes to slow play.  My experience has been that most players don't follow the letter of that rule in order to keep play moving.

[Shane Gurnett]

Matt Ward,

How many shot penalties were imposed on slow players on both the PGA and LPGA Tours last year (not fines, shot penalties)?

Shane

[Tim Pitner]

I'm not an apologist for slow play, but I will say that on many of the newer courses in the Denver area, because of the often great distances between greens and tees, it's not that easy for a foursome to play in 4 hours, especially if people are hitting it into the native grass areas that constitute deep rough in these parts.  

Based on my observation, mostly at the now defunct International, where PGA players take an absolute eternity is on the greens.  I know that's where the money is made and lost, but my goodness--all 3 players will circle the green, stalking their putts and after the first player putts, the other 2 will repeat the entire process again.  There are actually times when you wonder, "is anyone going to hit the golf ball?"

[ed_getka]

Shivas,
   You showed great self-restraint in not wrapping a 3 iron around the head of the moron who lined up a cheater line on PUNCHED greens. That has to be the most absurd thing I have ever heard of on a golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Shane G:

I don't know the answer to that question -- but clearly the number isn't moving the slowpokes any faster. The issue is that slow play is nothing more than a talking point -- for most golf courses (public, private or resort) and on the tournament scene it's nothing more than a complex and byzantine system of warnings on top of more warnings before anything is done.

Like I said before -- on the tournament scene -- it's simple -- if you are out of position even on the first time -- there's no guarantee you will only be warned. Clearly, those officiating such events need to be sufficiently aware of what is happening before imposing severe penalties. Clearly, the folks at the LPGA don't see what's happening even when star players such as Ochoa and Davies have said so over and over again.

Slow play is killing golf and unless draconian actions are brought into play nothing will help.

Tim P:

If people hit into the hay -- it would help if course personnel were stationed in the areas of the course where such situations routinely occur. If the ball cannot be found within a few minutes - then a ball should be dropped near enough to the spot where it was lost and proceed from there.

Yes, I am aware that players can play a provisional ball and that's fine if they do. Many don't. I also think course personnel should simply "ride herd" on the usual turtle-like players that play the same place week after week.

If you want to speed things up -- give rewards to those who move along (access to tee times) while penalizing those who don't (limited or no access to tee time until much later in the day).

On the tournament scene -- I agree with you 1000% -- the amt of time that players take to putt is beyond any reasonable defense. It is simply unacceptable.

The problem at the tour levels is that Finchem and Bivens do next to nothing.

[Kalen Braley]

I have a question for those who reside on the European side of the pond.  Its my understanding that from your perspective playing a round in 3-3.5 hours is normal and 4 hours or more is dreadfully slow.

I've heard arguements and tended to believe myself, that your average golfer will copy and mimic what he sees on TV when out on the golf courses.  This would explain the slow pace found here on American courses, where by the way if I get to play a round in 4:15 or less I'm very pleased.

That being said, when watching the Euro Tour events, do the pros get around in 3 to 3.5 hours?  And if not, then how does this square up with the "monkey see, monkey do" theory to explain American golf?  Or do most European golfers just plain not watch the Euro tour?

Thanks,

[JESII]

While I root for him, Harrington couldn't play in 3.5 hours by himself if we gave him every putt inside three feet...

[Matt_Sullivan]

Hi Kalen

I've played some golf in the UK and the US, as well as a lot of golf in Australia (influenced more by the UK) and Asia (influenced by the US). There is no doubt that, as a rule, pace of play is faster in the UK and Australia than it is in the US or Asia.

Here are some of my thoughts on why this is:

-- Match play and stableford are much more common in the UK and Australia than in the US or Asia. The card and pencil culture leads people to grind over the four footer for an 8, whereas in stableford you pick up, take your wipe and move on. Stableford particularly can speed things up - a lost ball can often lead to a "wipe" rather than a trudge back to replay the shot and so on.

-- Carts are much less prevalent in the UK and Australia. Carts almost always slow things down, particularly where a "carts path only rule" is in place. But even when driving on the fairways, carts can be slow. For example, where people drive back and forth to each other's ball, or have to park some way from the green and so forth.

-- Many people in Australia and the UK play on older, often municipal or public courses, where greens and tees are close together, there is not a lot of water hazards or heavy rough and so forth. Moving to a higher end example perhaps more familiar to this group, look at the Sandbelt or St Andrews -- generally wide fairways, no or very few water hazards, often wispy rough (coupled with the occasional obvioius "your dead" spots like gorse).

-- The new public, high end/resort courses in US and Asia seem to have a lot of water, bunkers, OB (often driven by housing developments), long walks between greens and tees, often have compulsory carts (and sometimes cartpath only). None of these things encourage a fast pace of play, particularly when coupled with a card and pencil mentality. There are new courses being built on the CCFAD model in Australia that exhibit a lot of these features. Pace of play is not yet a problem on many of these courses in Australia because they have pretty low traffic (probably because the green fees are expensive by local standards).

-- Most courses in Australia and the UK don't let people play the back tees. Instead, you play from the member tees of the day. This has two effects: first, play is always faster from a more forward set of tees; second, Australia and UK golfers don't have as much of an inclination to go to the tips even when they are allowed to.

Does this make sense?

[Brad Swanson]

I'm not buying that the long preshot routine is the main culprit of slow play.  It certainly can be annoying.  Maybe it is for the private club player, but there are many more simple explainations for the Publinx player.  Many public course players simply don't make it a priority to play in an efficient manner.  They only play sparingly, and enjoy "being out" on the course, why rush to finish.  Cartpath only rules, beer cart stops every 3 holes or so, and many other simple things contribute, and these are factors directly tie in to the bottom line of the course, so I don't see them changing anytime soon.  That being said, slow play is a prime reason I haven't played in over a year and (save for a few potential GCA rounds) don't anticipate on playing until my son is able to take-up the game if he so chooses.

I find that since I am usually not the first to hit my approach that I can more often than not take care of club and intermediate target selection while others are playing their shots and can do my preshot routine in minimal time when its my time to play.  If you are smart about it, they don't take all that much time.

Cheers,
Brad

[Bill Warnick]

A recent rule by the French Federation of Golf mandated that in all
club competitions the round must be finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes. A five minute grace period is allowed but with a two stroke penalty. Beyond the 4 hour 25 minutes limit, the player is disqualified.

The rounds before the rule were 5-6 hours. Now there
are no rounds over 4 hours 15 minutes. French golfers are not known for their ballstriking ability so slow play has little to do with skill.

This is the proof that if players had a motive to play faster they would. It's like the old course. 4 hours period. If you don't have time to hit it, pick it up and walk.

[Jim Nugent]

A recent rule by the French Federation of Golf mandated that in all
club competitions the round must be finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes. A five minute grace period is allowed but with a two stroke penalty. Beyond the 4 hour 25 minutes limit, the player is disqualified.

The rounds before the rule were 5-6 hours. Now there
are no rounds over 4 hours 15 minutes. French golfers are not known for their ballstriking ability so slow play has little to do with skill.

This is the proof that if players had a motive to play faster they would. It's like the old course. 4 hours period. If you don't have time to hit it, pick it up and walk.

Bill, how has this affected scoring?  

[Steve Kline]

I just read in Golfweek where some courses instituted a local rule that you could only pick your ball up once on the green. So, you could pick it up to clean it but then you had to putt out. No marking the ball. According to the letter writer, this has dramatically sped up play - shaving something like a half hour off the round times. The courses that have instituted this rule have seen increased play of their courses.

[Doug Siebert]

I really have to agree with the suggestion that the pro tour bears a lot of responsibility for the slow play today.  Yes, there are many other reasons, but I think the first step towards curing the problem would to attack it on the tour in a meaningful way.

How many golfers are new to the game in the last 10 years since Tiger came on the scene?  Every single one of them has never seen anything other than slow play when they watch on TV (not saying Tiger is a particularly slow player, but he's certainly not quick either)  The announcers will talk about it occasionally and identify a certain player as a slow player, but they never suggest that slow play is any particular sin or that something ought to be done.

The tour is always threesome and sometimes twosomes, 10 minutes apart there.  There's no reason they can't always finish in less than 4 hours unless the weather is really bad.  I'll even grant a bit of leeway for the guys within striking distance on the lead on the back nine on Sunday since pressure may cause them to need an extra 30 seconds here and there for a difficult or important shot.

Unfortunately the PGA tour is run by the players, and they have no desire to enforce a rule like this because they don't want ever be in a situation where they themselves are hurried.  This is something that the USGA ought to take the lead in for the events it runs, and maybe the Masters committee ought to consider it as well.  Once the PGA tour saw it working they'd probably adopt it as 90% of the players would find their game doesn't suffer at all playing faster, and the small number who do would be outvoted by the rest.

If the average schlub who thinks golf on TV is only worth watching if Tiger is winning saw guys moving more quickly and heard the discussion by the announcers that would inevitably ensue when the changes took place, they might not believe the crap they hear from the well-meaning announcers when they spout crap about the importance of a preshot routine, never hitting it "before you are ready" (whatever the hell that means!) and seeing the pros lining up putts from all sides, lining up the damn cheater line, and other stupid stuff.

Then, and only then, would it be possible for courses to start enforcing rules on slow play.  Today I think too many players (especially better players, unfortunately) would look on it as an assault on their rights.  I still think that a course that always has a full tee sheet could do it today and not worry about people griping -- there would always be more guys ready to take their place.  But I can understand where a course that struggles to make ends meet wouldn't want to risk alienating players, even though IMHO in the long run they'd get new players once they heard that you can really play in 4 hours or less at that course.  I know I'd adjust how often I play certain courses if I could count on one always having a quicker round.  If nothing else I could tee off at 4PM on a Saturday there and know I'd still finish before dark.  Right now there's a chance I might, but also a chance I might have to walk in from the 13th green, depending on what kind of idiots there were in front of us.

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward said:

"The complete breakdown of golf administrators only sends the message to the masses that slow play is OK and will be tolerated."

Matt Ward and others:

I haven't read this whole thread but are any of you aware of the new USGA pace of play procedure the USGA instituted last year in their tournaments?

I haven't seen it in action---I've only heard about it in a USGA Rules Seminar but it sounded stringent to say the least.

Apparently, the way it works is all groups have to hit something like 3-4 "gates" (spots on the course) on or under their allotted pace of play time.

If they don't do that for whatever reason the entire group is hit with an AUTOMATIC Rule 6-7 penalty, and the way it was being talked about I do mean automatic.

The only alleviation to this procedure is apparently all players have the ability to "appeal" that Rule 6-7 penalty at the scoring table.

This kind of thing takes a lot of officials and manpower to actually monitor and enforce "on course" but it is not what I would call 'a complete breakdown on the part of golf administrators to send a message to the masses that slow play is OK and will be tolerated', that's for damn sure.

[Cliff Hamm]

Let them tee off, tell them that they have to finish in no more than X time and that they can't finish more than Y minutes behind the group in front of them and penalize the ENTIRE group if they fail to do so.

The problem with golf is:

Once the first group plays in 4.5 hours, the group behind them can't play in 3.8 hours, every group behind them is doomed to a 4.5 hour round, or more.

Therefore, time them out, time them in, take the differential and the relationship to the group ahead of them and act accordingly, and you'll get the pace of play sped up in a heart beat.

After the sescond round of slow play this year thought I'd respond.  Played a round with my wife in New Jersey where it took 5 hours.  We were playing with a couple of low single digit golfers and never waited!  It was awful and the marshall approached me on 9 and said we needed to close the gap.  He was right but should have spoken with the others.

Last week played a round where I play often.  My wife and I have twice played this spring in 3 1/2 hours.  This round took a bit over 41/2 hours.  Once again decent golfers about 10 handicaps, while mine is 16 and my wife's is 28.  They were never ready.  Even on the tees with no one in the fairway would wash their balls on every hole and diddle.  Thought I was going to lose it on the greens.  I decided I'd rather wait than feel like I'm part of the cause of slow play.  I chose not to say anything as I feared that would just make for an uncomfortable round.  Anyway, this is obviously not a unique experience.

I do think that Pat has a great idea.  Tell the first group they must get around say in 4 hours.  Second group must finish within say 12 minutes or so of the first and so on.  Punch a card with your time when you tee off and finish.  Charge say $65 dollars and $15 is refundable if you make it on time.

Private courses could have similar penalties.  If you don't make it on time you're given a warning.  If it happens again you are not allowed to make tee times before 9.  If it continues 10, etc.  If you make it around in time 3 times this penalty is removed.

It is concrete and not open to argument.

[Dan_Callahan]

One of the biggest problems is that there is no stigma attached to slow play. Quite the opposite is true in Tour, where more often than not slow play is praised. How many times have we heard a broadcaster gush over the deliberate, grinding style of Jim Furyk? Give me a break. The guy backs off every shot as part of his preshot routine. It is excruciating to watch.

Slow players at the professional level should be branded with a scarlet letter and embarassed to the fullest extent short of harassment. Slow play needs to be universally viewed as unacceptable and considered to be the lowest form of bad etiquette, on a par with wearing dark socks with shorts and farting in your partners backswing.

[Dan Herrmann]

I just read in Golfweek where some courses instituted a local rule that you could only pick your ball up once on the green. So, you could pick it up to clean it but then you had to putt out. No marking the ball. According to the letter writer, this has dramatically sped up play - shaving something like a half hour off the round times. The courses that have instituted this rule have seen increased play of their courses.

Great idea, but they can't do it -rule 33-1 states that the cmte may not waive a rule.

And, back the the original post - the pace of play on the tours' greens is unforgivable.  If any member played at that pace at any club, he'd be eventually asked to leave the club.  It's horrible.  And TV doesn't even come close to showing just how slow these folks are.

Three cheers for Rory!

[Doug Siebert]

Cliff,

I've thought about the refund idea in the past but I think the mentality of people who want to "get their money's worth" would cause some to not sweat it over the amount unless it was pretty damn big.  Even then, guys who are playing on their company's tab (sales guys golfing with clients, etc.) wouldn't care, if it meant more face time with their clients and increased the likelihood of closing the deal.

Think about this in context of Pebble Beach.  It already costs a fortune to play, even if they made you pay $1000 if you took over four hours, do you really believe there wouldn't be some guys who wouldn't just say "screw it" and decide they don't want to be rushed?  There are plenty of very rich people for whom that extra money is like a quarter to you and me, along with plenty of guys who aren't picking up the tab for the golf personally.

No, I think the only way to really stop the slow play would be to let the golfers know up front that they'll be kicked off the course if they don't keep pace.  If they have a hole open up (assuming the group in front is playing at pace, obviously if you have the second time of the day you don't need to play a two hour round if you are following speed demons) and the ranger warns them, then comes back a few holes later and there are two holes open up, they are told they have to skip the next two holes or go home.  THAT and only that IMHO would have a real effect.

There's still the problem of what to do if two twosomes get put together and two are playing at pace and two are slowpokes.  In your example, you and your wife would be fined or kicked off because of the single digit players playing with you, or worse, a clueless ranger would just assume you and your wife are the problem because you are worse players and she's a woman.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

It's wonderful to have "stringent" words on paper -- better yet -- how bout actually enforcing what's said with some clear and direct action -- to wit -- throwing two-stroke penalties without all the mindless verbal tap dancing on warnings and the inane "your on the clock" statements?

Tom, wake up my good man -- adminstrators (USGA, PGA, et al) talk a great game about speeding up the game but when confronted with the obvious they decide to always punt the ball.

People learn from examples and frankly the main golf organizations have a direct responsibility to grow the game and to lead by example -- confronting slow play (along with the sheer costs to play) is what is driving many people to other forms of recreation.

I watched the women very closely at UMCC during the recent Sybase event and nearly all of them are slowpokes. They simply refuse to play to a pace that would keep things moving. Ochoa and Davies were quite right -- the LPGA brass does nothing and the results were as plain as day for me when I attended the event.

On the local level -- golf course owners need to develop incentive plans for those who DO MOVE. I play less now because I value my time. I don't see the need or have the desire to stand behind people who are attempting to hole putts for triples or quads. I am also tired of ignorant course staff personnel -- who are more interested in greeting golfers at the front gate with their walkie-talkies but sit on their butts when faced with some deep pocket type who feels "entitled" to proceed at whatever pace he / she believes is warranted.

Tom, you play plenty of your golf at private establishments. Those facilities have a bit more freedom to deal with the issue. Check out the public places and much of what is not done there bears a direct connection to the inaction of those at the top of the pyramid.

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