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Jim Nugent

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2007, 04:47:37 AM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on May 13, 2007, 09:07:29 PM
Sean O'Hair goes into 17 two shots back and leaves six back.  Still think 17 is a good 71st hole?

Having never played the hole, I've still never thought it is a good one.  O'Hair's debacle is just one more example why.  100% penal.  
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John Kavanaugh

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2007, 07:26:45 AM »
Quote from: Brad Klein on May 14, 2007, 04:23:42 AM
JK

I think you could not be more wrong on your call about Butch Harmon. He wasn't greenside; he was behind the stands, on the walkway near the clubhouse, and it was not mugged for the cameras. I know you are incapable of acknowledging genuine feelings between people, but that was an example.



Smith was more than just a teacher to Phil, he was a close friend.  Harmon was out of line mugging for the camera's...Of course maybe Butch didn't learn where good camera shot opportunities are found during the time he spent with Tiger..This is not Butch's first pony ride.  I played very close attention to Phils body language during the embrace and few steps arm and arm towards the clubhouse.  Phil broke it off knowing that it was wrong.  Butch will be gone by this time next year.
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2007, 08:10:59 AM »
What's wrong with a hole that separates the winner from the loser?????

If it wasn't an island green, Phil doesn't hit to the center of the green, and O'Hair isn't really being all that bold by going at the pin.
Is it a better hole if he's in a tour bunker (as in birdie opportunity) when he AIRMAILS the green and then gets up and down???

By the way, the rest of the field played that hole too, and last I checked it was a 72 hole total.
(although they nearly had to shorten the event due to an excess of practice swings and mental "preparation")
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dave Bourgeois

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2007, 08:14:31 AM »
I have no problem with the 17th being 100% penal. These are the greatest players in the world, and I believe this course was pretty much built for them.  It is a short hole but makes players think, re-think and doubt what they are doing.  Put that green in-land and it is a push over.

I love where it comes in the round because of how the players are mentally effected. Personally I would hate to play architecture like this all of the time, but in the context of the Players Champ. I think it is great.
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2007, 09:27:30 AM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on May 14, 2007, 07:26:45 AM
 Butch will be gone by this time next year.
Not if Mickelson keeps winning, he won't.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2007, 09:43:19 AM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on May 13, 2007, 10:34:53 PM
Quote
I just wonder whether the same thing couldn't be accomplished with the most elevated volcano green and ridiculously steep dropoffs all around it...

Dave, that is almost the "boxcar hole" at Lawsonia.  Only, the left and back left isn't so steep.  About 2/3rds of the green is steep sloped as you describe.  Of course, the difference is at Lawsonia you still have the fun high flopper to get up to the putting surface rather than don the scuba gear...  ;) ;D

Yeah!

During our GCA round there last year I hit it short and right of the green, down that HUGE embankment.  A simple "flopper" from there and I walked away with a tap-in par.  Ho-hum.....  8)
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Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 12.2. Have 24 & 21 year old girls and wife of 27 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2007, 10:32:35 AM »
Let's see golf is a game of distance and direction by whatever means required by a specific situation.

Identifying  who has the best control of these factors would seem to be a mark of a good golf hole, no?

Oh that's right this is GCA. If you are not able to cold top a shot then watch as the ball tumbles along over the natural terrain atop a closely mown but slightly off color stand of native grass before ending up on the green for a well deserved birdie try it is not a good hole. My fault I forgot where I was.

John Kavanaugh - I think you are being a bit over critical of Harmon... He was nowhere near the 18th green... nor would I have been if my player, who hired me for the singular purpose of driving accuracy just won a tournament where he entered the final round DFL in driving accuaracy. The final round was a different story but Phil's putting was the difference not any perceived magic by Harmon.... No 3 putts for Mickelson... rying to find the last time that happened.  

On a related topic - Is having a Las Vegas based instructor good for Phil and Amy?

« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 04:55:59 PM by Greg Tallman »
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Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2007, 02:10:00 PM »
I also have no problem with the 17th - it is right there in front of you.  Although, I do wonder how "fair" the hole would be if you had a 30 mph wind at your back....
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"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2007, 02:34:25 PM »
Since you guys keep bringing up last July and the 7th at Lawsonia, here is our very own Brad Swanson in the very position you describe.  

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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

John Kavanaugh

Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2007, 02:46:14 PM »
Quote from: Greg Tallman on May 14, 2007, 10:32:35 AM

John Kavanaugh - I think you are being a bit over critical of Harmon... He was nowhere near the 18th green... nor would I have been if my player, who I hired for the singular purpose of driving accuracy just won a tournament where he entered the final round DFL in driving accuaracy. The final round was a different story but Phil's putting was the difference not any perceived magic by Harmon.... No 3 putts for Mickelson... rying to find the last time that happened.  



An article on GeoffSackelford.com about this same thing.  Geoff has somewhat of an opposite take but with the same theme.

http://tinyurl.com/2vf8w4
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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2007, 02:54:29 PM »
O'Hair's blowup on 17 was richly deserved. He tried to single-handedly suck the life out of the tournament with his glacial pace (we watched him and Mickelson play the first couple of holes in Duluth, then drove 160 miles to the Twin Cities, and they were on the 15th hole when we resumed watching).

If that's the effect this hole can have on a "deliberate" player who takes forever to decide how he's going to play his next shot, I say build more holes like #17.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It is enough to make you cry
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2007, 04:25:27 PM »
First I have to agree that Sean O'Hair's slow play is terrible to watch and I wish he would learn to play faster.  But I doubt he will, and since most PGA play is between 4.5 to 5+ hours, I doubt he will see any need to speed up his pace of play.

On the other hand, when so often I hear comments that Americans pros have no desire to win, that they are satisfied to get good paychecks for any top-10, it was great to see a very young pro have only 1 intention on the 71st hole, to WIN!  Even after going in the water on his first shot, he still was not concerned with locking up at least a tie for 2nd place money.  It looks as though when he was hitting 3 he was trying to get the ball very close for at least a bogey and still keep some pressure on Phil.  Sean O'Hair should at least get applauded for wanting only victory, and having no other thoughts about a "good top-10 finish".
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“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon
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