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Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf is a game played over uncertain ground in uncertain conditions with a certain end.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Peter Pallotta

TE
thanks very much; that's a wonderful post.

Needless to say, I hadn't thought of it that way before; a little surprising, since my basic premise/assumption in trying to learn about gca is that its development/evolution was not disconnected or random.  

Thanks again
Peter

TEPaul

"Needless to say, I hadn't thought of it that way before; a little surprising, since my basic premise/assumption in trying to learn about gca is that its development/evolution was not disconnected or random."

Peter:

Maybe I didn't write that post very well. I didn't mean to say the evolution was completely disconnected or random, the opposite in fact, in my opinion.

Obviously it was not seamless and without problems of all types and kinds---problems of unappealing sites, unwelcome soil for golf, the great void and vacuum of the unrecognizable and unrecognized, even national pride and such.

The point with the early emigration of golf and architecture outside Scotland was how long so many essential things about both were unrecognizable and unrecognized. One could probably make a pretty could case that it was actually about two to two and a half decades of real crap with inland golf and architecture outside Scotland (or outside seaside sites) that got the worm to turn at all.  ;)

If one is to put much credence in Behr and what he wrote I suppose they would have to accept what he seemed to suggest that when golf was in that state of innocence in Scotland, the only place the game existed for so long, that even those early linksmen had no real idea what had been so naturally and fortunately given to them in the linksland. That they only came to realize just how fortunate their golf (and architecture) was after others attempted to take it elsewhere. I guess in a real way that's probably what a state of innocence is all about.  ;)

And then some decades after the stream of emigration outside Scotland had started and become so much more quantitative did those who took it elsewhere finally begin to realize just how and why one can take some of the technicalities of the game and its playing fields away to other unconducive places without really understanding that the essence has been left behind or even what the essence was.

That, I would call the first phase of the evolution. The next which might be best looked at as golf in America that virtually exploded after the turn of the century, one probably needs to look at the Americans themselves and their ethos of ingenuity and individuality.

That next phase and what occured I think can be well represented by that horrifying remark to C.B. Macdonald of incoming USGA president Robertson in 1901;

"Nothing can stay long in America without being Americanized."  

At this point Behr mentions that the game and its component pieces were torn apart so that they could be more closely scrutinized as to what they may scientifically mean. In Behr's mind this was the point when the necessary component of Nature in golf and in golf architecture began to lose its place and its importance---to the dire detriment of the game (sport) of course.

Peter Pallotta

TE
thanks very much again for the post - just a very good 'foundational' point for my thinking/learning.

Btw, your first post was clear re: gca development not being random. It was my post that was confusing: what I meant was that it was a "little surprising" that I'd never before seen the Haultain-Behr connection in the light you describe.  

Peter

TEPaul

"...what I meant was that it was a "little surprising" that I'd never before seen the Haultain-Behr connection in the light you describe."

Peter:

A Haultain influence on Behr is completely speculative on my part but in light of everything else it seems pretty logical. I do know a man who bought Behr's own personal library. I should call him and ask him if Haultain's book is in it. It would surprise me if it wasn't.  

Rich Goodale

Calm down, Tommy.

You know that Behr was to Haultain as Bowdler was to Shakespeare.  Maxie was a better stick, however.....

RFG

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
The game was meant to be fun.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jay Flemma

That's easy.  The soul of Golf is the voice, touch and conscience of God.

JohnV

Find a copy of the new book, "Classic Shots" from the USGA and read Tom Friedman's afterward.  It does a great job of capturing the soul of the game.


Quote
The most precious and satisfying seconds in golf are watching a ball that you have struck perfectly match the geography, soar at just the right trajectory, bounce at just the right angle and finish right by the hole - if not in it.

Combine this with Kirk's law that measures a golf course on how long those precious seconds can last.

Another quote:

Quote
My steady fellow competitor for more than a decade, Joel Finkelstein, likes to say that he would rather shoot 85 with his regular friends than 75 with three strangers.

That is true as long as my three friends shoot 86. ;)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 01:42:44 PM by John Vander Borght »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
The soul of golf resides in Scotland and nowhere else.

Jay Flemma

The soul of golf resides in Scotland and nowhere else.

With great respect, Tom, I dont agree.  You've found it several times...helloooooo?  Ballyneal!   so has Engh...so did Strantz.

Anytime, I get that feeling of solace, peace, restful tranquility or energized delight and excitement where the rest of the world has melted away and I'm alone on the golf course with my playing partners...I have tapped into the vortex...the soul of the game.

The soul of golf?  It's findable on any golf course.  It's when you find peace and solace amidst the traffic of the world.

Maybe its a final round with your dad on the local muni, or the round with a brother you haven't seen in ten years, maybe its just that magic late sunday afternoon round in fall with your son when he gets his first par...some places help you find oit more than others.  I felt it in Northern Michigan, colorado, oregon, the carolinas...yes, even one day on the puni muni down the street - when I played my first round of golf with my dad after his quadruple bypass at age 78...

Sorry to get all maudlin on everyone, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 04:52:58 PM by Jay Flemma »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anytime, I get that feeling of solace, peace, restful tranquility or energized delight and excitement where the rest of the world has melted away and I'm alone with my laying partners...

And just what does this have to do with golf?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jay Flemma

I meant "playing" partners...get your head out of the gutter ;D

Dman dyxelsia! ;)

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'll give it a shot.

The soul of golf is the journey (in Scotland, or elsewhere).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jay Flemma

I like that Dan.  Boy, the hippies sure have taken over this thread!

I also LOVE Calvin as your avatar...Calvin and Hobbes rock.


TEPaul

Richard the Magnificent:

Was that really the best you could do? If you think as much of Haultain as you seem to you must get choked up in Disney and Hallmark Hall of Fame made for TV movies too, huh?



;)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 04:50:00 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

"It's when you find peace and solace amidst the traffic of the world."

Jay:

One can probably find that on an out-of-the-way bench in Olmsted's mighty Central Park.

Jay Flemma

Yeah, but you have to make sure you don't hit anybody playing through central park :D

It's alot easier at bayonne, lemme tellya!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm wondering if James Brown doesn't figure into this somehow.


Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Joe:

If he does you better give equal billing to Aretha.

Peter Pallotta

I'm wondering if James Brown doesn't figure into this somehow.
Joe

He used to, Joe, but not so much anymore.

Speaking of which, though, maybe one day a Masters' winner will collapse from exhaustion in Butler Cabin, and Jim Nance and the Chairman will help him back to his feet, draping the green jacket over his shoulders like a cape...

Peter  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Most courses wouldn't have soul if James Brown AND Aretha Franklin were hiding in the bushes singing!

I'll try (two entries)  The soul of golf is:

Imperfectly playing the perfect game.

Comraderie and Competition.

PS- Congrats to TEPaul for doing the (for him) impossible - answering in one word!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
James and Aretha are to Soul Music what _________ and ________ is to the soul of golf....

Joe

p.s. I had the blanks filled in, but thought it might be more fun to see some other answers first.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

I don't believe you Joe. I think you're lying to all of us. I think you came up with "James Brown and Aretha are to soul music what"... and then when you got to the second part, ".....is to the soul of golf", you had a massive brain fart and "blank" and "blank" is all you could come up with and now you're trying to deny it by sloughing those two incredibly important words in the second part off on us!!!!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't believe you Joe. I think you're lying to all of us. I think you came up with "James Brown and Aretha are to soul music what"... and then when you got to the second part, ".....is to the soul of golf", you had a massive brain fart and "blank" and "blank" is all you could come up with and now you're trying to deny it by sloughing those two incredibly important words in the second part off on us!!!!

I don't give in that easily, Mr. Paul! Besides, I've methodically trained my brain to contract at the first sign of fartacious tendencies, thereby reducing or eliminating brain farts altogether. I do understand that may change as I grow older, however.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017