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Michael Dugger

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2007, 06:28:34 PM »
Regarding the 1st five holes and the notion of whether the course would be better if they were the last 5 instead....

I always liked what Shack wrote about Mackenzie in The Good Doctor Returns.  Take the golfer to the ocean immediately, but make sure and return.

As Tom Doak mentioned in the the Guide, too bad the course doesn't work in and out of the dunes more, instead of using up the oceanside/linksland portion of the property all at once.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bill_McBride

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2007, 11:15:09 PM »
#12 is the finest par-3 in the world, in that it was the site of my 1st hole in one.  More seriously, it (and 15) are far better examples of a quality drop-shot par 3 than #3.  A very good example as to how context tends to influecne architectural criticism.


Hmmm, 3 drop shot par-3s on one course?  So much for variety ...

Hmmm, sorta like that outstanding course by the lake with the three par 3's over very big, very deep fronting bunkers?  ??? ;D  If variety is the spice of life, why do golf architects do that?

AndrewB

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 12:58:33 AM »
I think it was Stuart Appelbey at the A.T.&T., who I thought was was delaying the game, until I realized he was waiting for the previous group to exit the tee. He was 246 yards away and plonked his ball on the upper left of the green where it trundled down toward the pin.

I think RTJ would have eaten his hat had he seen it.

Well, then. I'll insert the standard "he plays a game with which I am not familiar" here.

I suppose most tour professionals would be long enough to try and get there in two shots, but now I wonder how short an iron he hit into seven.  Playing the approach shot to the upper left and letting it feed down does make sense since that line would take the water out of play while still being able to get it reasonably close.  I wonder if RTJ did actually have that in mind when building the green.

The hole was cut up on that upper left tier in one of my rounds and it sure is tough to hit and hold.

Off-topic question: does anyone know what's under the ground behind the 16th green?  It's quite loud there and one of my fellow competitors suggested it was some sort of device to ensure the soil didn't get too cold.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Bob Jenkins

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2007, 01:02:57 AM »
Andrew,

What do you mean "behind the 16th green". I have been there recently for the first time in a while and cannot think of what may be on your mind. I think that hole is one of the best par 4s I have ever seen but to think there is something under the ground makes me wonder what is on your mind.

Bob Jenkins

AndrewB

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2007, 01:46:21 AM »
Behind the green there are a few black circular objects in the ground (similar in shape to a sprinkler head) that appear to be covers of some kind.  When playing the hole I set my bag down behind the green relatively close to one of these covers and there was a very noticeable sound coming from it.  It sounded as if there was some machine running underneath the ground.  I'm curious if anyone knows what that is.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Rich Goodale

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2007, 02:08:48 AM »
Andrew

Thanks for your thoughts.

#6 was always a ball buster for me, so if they've added yardage I think I'll decline the back tee should I ever get there again.  Thinking of the hole, do they really need that left bunker, except for aesthetics/framing?  Isn't the ideal aproach from as far right as you can get (short of the bunker for the short hitter, parallel to it to guys like you and over it for the pros)?

I've always though of #7 as a barely reachable 5 which narows the closer you get to the green, making a layup tricky, as you say.  Same as #15 at Harbout Town.  Did I hear someone say that Appleby hit it with driver/7iron? :'(

Vis a vis the dropshot par-3's, I think the greens on 12 and 15 are more interesting than 3.  I also hate iceplant.

(For Mike B--lots of great courses have elements of repetition.  I think one of the venial sins of modern architects is their endless quest for variety--"all points of the compass", "use every club in the bag" and all that..)

(For Adam C--What ocean?)

For all--thanks for the memories.

Rich

Eric Johnson

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2007, 08:16:07 AM »
Behind the green there are a few black circular objects in the ground (similar in shape to a sprinkler head) that appear to be covers of some kind.  When playing the hole I set my bag down behind the green relatively close to one of these covers and there was a very noticeable sound coming from it.  It sounded as if there was some machine running underneath the ground.  I'm curious if anyone knows what that is.

Andrew,

Are the objects back left and back right?  If so, there were catch basins installed there back in 1996.  So, I would guess the grates are capped and there may be a Sub-Air installed somewhere nearby.  The outlet for the green drainage runs down the approach and into the swale (Seal creek)to the left.  

Of course this is all speculation on my part.

Adam Clayman

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2007, 10:16:52 AM »
I never noticed any black circular thingys behind 16. They must be newer than 96'.

Bill & Mike B.- In all my travels around Spyglass I never felt the the one shotters were repetitive. Reading about them here, I can see how that could be an easy misunderstanding.

Rihc brings up a good defense of the seventh's quality. Even though I agree with him, it doesn't stop the hole from being considered the weakest hole on the course, which just shows how strong the rest of the holes really are.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

redanman

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2007, 10:21:11 AM »
I think a more esential question is:

How is Spyglass different from more than appx. 500 other Modern Courses - save the views of the sea, the few over-rated holes in the sand its proximity to Pebble Beach and some degree of toughness?  Remember, the PGATour Professionals sing its praise, isn't that a general negative vote - hard and fair?

Serious answers, please.  It was once at or near #10 on the GolfWeek Modern list.   I just don't get it, convince me.

Adam Clayman

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2007, 10:37:07 AM »
Bill, I think Spyglass has some mojoesque about it that those other 500 do not. Be it the extra gravity spots or the swirling unpredictable winds up in the trees on the backnine. There is just something special about the property. Robert louis Stevenson might be able to better articulate it.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

redanman

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2007, 11:07:18 AM »
GRAVITY!

Adam I knew I could count on you!

It's the difference in local gravity, and I thought it was Macavity.


 Macavity!

Macavity's a mystery cat, he's called the hidden paw
For he's a master criminal who can defy the law
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair
For when they reach the scene of crime Macavity's not there!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity
He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity
His powers of levitation would make a fakir stare
And when you reach the scene of crime Macavity's not there!

You may seek him in the basement, you may look up in the air
But I tell you once and once again Macavity's not there!

Macavity's a ginger cat, he's very tall and thin
You would know him if you saw him for his eyes are sunken in
His brow is deeply lined in thought, his head is highly domed
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed

He sways his head from side to side with movements like a snake
And when you think he's half asleep, he's always wide awake

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity
He's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square
But when a crime's discovered then Macavity's not there!

He's outwardly respectable, I know he cheats at cards
And his footprints are not found in any files of Scotland Yard's
And when the larder's looted or the jewel case is rifled
Or when the milk is missing or another peke's been stifled
Or the greenhouse glass is broken and the trellis past repair
There's the wonder of the thing Macavity's not there!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity
There never was a cat of such deceitfulness and suavity
He always has an alibi and one or two to spare
What ever time the deed took place Macavity wasn't there!

And they say that all the cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone
Are nothing more than agents for the cat who all the time
Just controls the operations: the Napoleon of crime!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity
He's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square
But when a crime's discovered then Macavity

Macavity, Macavity, Macavity
When a crime's discovered then Macavity's not there!
Macavity's not there!

 

Thanks for making me think of that!!!!!!

YES!  ;D

added (answer to question below):

Bill, just because I choose to call it extra gravity doesn't mean it isn't there. Whatever the reason, too many people hit too many shots that come up short.

The same effect works in coastal areas all over. Spyglass also has a fair number of uphill sneaky shots and a paucity of running shots.  There's always been a lot of hit-and-stop there (for better or worse).

Perhaps a number of your carries were hung-over as well. 8) Still, in the end, there is little to distinguish Spyglass than its location and specific position on the geography of the Monterey Peninsula.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 01:42:01 PM by W.Vostinak »

Bob Jenkins

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2007, 01:33:29 AM »

Since reading some of the earlier posts, I have been trying to imagine playing this course backwards, ending up with the opening 5.

5 would be slightly downhill, away from the ocean and houses, to an unknown green. Depends on what could have been fabricated.

4. Maybe the hole could have been reversed with a green from left to right down near the current fourth tee, or at least below it. Okay, that could have been done.

3. Uphill at this point? Nope. Maybe across to the area of the 2nd fairway but certainly not up the hill. Too severe a hill.

2. From the present second green back towards the current 2nd tee. That would be fun. I can see us loading up on what would be a downhill drive where the green is reachable. I would prefer, however, the current no. 2.

1. Uphill winding around to the right as opposed to the left. It would be very long. Probably something could be done.

Overall, I cannot see that ending Spyglass in the current "sand" holes would make it better. I also believe that concentrating on the first five is a mistake. There is an awful lot more to the place.

Adam Clayman

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2007, 03:13:16 AM »
Bill, just because I choose to call it extra gravity doesn't mean it isn't there. Whatever the reason, too many people hit too many shots that come up short.

To ignore the spirit of the place and it's inspiring history means you missed the boat to Treasure Island.

Bob, You're absolutely correct. There's no way to do it without a complete re-route & re-do, ala the Shore Course up the road a piece.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re:Is Spyglass underrated because it is RTJ's work?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2007, 03:33:37 AM »
There already exists a great "reverse" hole at Spyglass--the spectacular 210 yard drop shot par-3 from the back tee at #2 to the 1st green.  My buddy and I used to hit trash balls to that "hole" when the 2nd fairway was backed up and the 1st green was clear.

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