Here's the Illinois list from Golf Digest.  I've played all but five of them and I think they've done a pretty good job of ranking the courses.  My only real beef is with Rich Harvest Farms.  I played there once and I really thought it was amateur hour architecturally speaking.

1. Medinah C.C. (No. 3), Medinah
2. Butler National G.C., Oak Brook
3. Chicago G.C., Wheaton
4. Olympia Fields C.C. (North), Olympia Fields
5. Rich Harvest Links, Sugar Grove
6. Shoreacres, Lake Bluff
7. Canyata G.C., Marshall
8. Cog Hill G. & C.C. (No. 4), Lemont*
9. Conway Farms G.C. Lake Forest
10. Knollwood C. Lake Forest
11. Skokie C.C. Glencoe
12. Kemper Lakes G.C., Hawthorn Woods
13. Beverly C.C. Chicago
14. WeaverRidge G.C. Peoria*
15. Medinah C.C. (No. 1) Medinah
16. Olympia Fields C.C. (South) Olympia Fields
17. TPC Deere Run, Silvis*
18. The General at Eagle Ridge Galena*
19. Ivanhoe C. (Prairie/Forest) Mundelein
20. Black Sheep G.C., Sugar Grove
21. Bob O’Link G.C., Highland Park
22. The Glen Club, Glenview*
23 .Pine Meadow G.C., Mundelein*
24. North Shore C.C., Glenview
25. Wynstone G.C., North Barrington

   
Here's the other thing about the Illinois list: it is woefully inadequate when measured against the New York list.

Here's the Illinois list from Golf Digest.  I've played all but five of them and I think they've done a pretty good job of ranking the courses.  My only real beef is with Rich Harvest Farms.  I played there once and I really thought it was amateur hour architecturally speaking.

1. Medinah C.C. (No. 3), Medinah
2. Butler National G.C., Oak Brook
3. Chicago G.C., Wheaton
4. Olympia Fields C.C. (North), Olympia Fields
5. Rich Harvest Links, Sugar Grove
6. Shoreacres, Lake Bluff
7. Canyata G.C., Marshall
8. Cog Hill G. & C.C. (No. 4), Lemont*
9. Conway Farms G.C. Lake Forest
10. Knollwood C. Lake Forest
11. Skokie C.C. Glencoe
12. Kemper Lakes G.C., Hawthorn Woods
13. Beverly C.C. Chicago
14. WeaverRidge G.C. Peoria*
15. Medinah C.C. (No. 1) Medinah
16. Olympia Fields C.C. (South) Olympia Fields
17. TPC Deere Run, Silvis*
18. The General at Eagle Ridge Galena*
19. Ivanhoe C. (Prairie/Forest) Mundelein
20. Black Sheep G.C., Sugar Grove
21. Bob O’Link G.C., Highland Park
22. The Glen Club, Glenview*
23 .Pine Meadow G.C., Mundelein*
24. North Shore C.C., Glenview
25. Wynstone G.C., North Barrington

   
Here's the other thing about the Illinois list: it is woefully inadequate when measured against the New York list.

Terry,

Are you trying to give Paul Richards a heart attack on the way home?  The thing I like about the Illinois list is that six courses made the top 100 and seven may have been so close.

Matt,

       You could debate the placement of numbers 4 - 10, like whether or not the Territory should be ranked higher than Chickasaw Pointe, but no glaring omissions there.

        Now in Washington, there could be some disagreement on whether or not Canterwood belongs in the top 10, its mostly just brutally hard, with some flat out goofy holes.  I say that and I actually like the course.

In addition, it would be of immense help if the powers-that-be from the various magazines create a system in which those living within a given state are given more weight when assessing state courses than the infrequent outsiders who simply only cherry pick particular courses.

Does any of this matter?

For those who think ratings are a joke the simple answer is no.

For the rest who do monitor such listings it would add a bit more credibility to what is clearly a subjective exercise.

There will never be 100% correct answers -- but when one loses a big chunk of credibility in so many locations it pays to update the process so that the final results have more meaning and are not outright dismissed.

I agree with you on delegating more "weight" to the chosen state panelists.

And

The ratings do matter. Any time a chance to rate or produce a list in this forum is introduced, it is jumped on like a hurt lion by a pack of hyenas. Everyone loves lists and there is always discussion; hence the "Top Whatever" by ESPN. And at the conclusion, there is always someone barking.

Matt:

Concerning your initial post and particularly concerning Pennsylvania, I've not seen the state or the state's courses suffer in the slightest because of some lack of understanding, due diligence and so forth of raters or magazine rating. I know as many of the courses in this state for various reasons as probably anyone and I think this state's courses and how they're perceived are doing and have been doing just fine. Do you seriously think some kind of improved process by magazine raters is going to help anything out? If you're talking about the success of some magazine to determine its own publication or circulation success in this vein that's probably a far different issue that has to do with magazine circulation, not golf course ranking. In my opinion, golf courses in Pennsylvania would not suffer a whit if there was no golf course magazine rating or ranking. Somehow people seem to be able to figure these things out on their own.

TEPaul:

Thanks for the reply -- here's my retort.

The issue is not whether the courses have "suffered" as you mentioned -- the issue is that a national publication sees fit to identify what is the best in the state.

As I and others have pointed out -- the State of Pennsylvania has a solid collection of private layouts -- one of the very best in the USA no doubt. The public side is woefully inadequate when compared side-to-side. I simply pointed out the continued listing of Olde Stonewall (don't know if you have played the layout) as one of the top ten courses in all of the Keystone State is a joke. Ditto the idea Golf Course at Glen Mills is also rated among the 21 best courses in Pennsy by GD.

When you ask do I seriously think a reform / revamping will improve the overall process? Yes, I do believe the process in identifying such courses can be improved internally. The issue with Pennsy, as I have said previously, is that the public side of the equation is far below the cumulative private side. From the many courses in the Keystone State I have played I would be hard pressed to have ANY public course in the top 40 simply because of the sheer depth of existing private layouts.
 
The issue is not as you articulated -- "In my opinion, golf courses in Pennsylvania would not suffer a whit if there was no golf course magazine rating or ranking."

Those who do "suffer" are readers (inside and outside the state) who place stock in what such publications provide. You are clearly observant and knowledgeable about the depth of quality courses in the state. Most are not so blessed.

You see Tom I would think that magazines would understand the situation with each different state. Pennsy is a haven for superior private golf -- it has one of the worst collection of public courses when compared to its private counterparts. When pubs can't understand the lay of the land it speaks volumes to me and others who do know the state that its results are indeed flawed.

And those flaws have been demonstrated in plenty of instances. No less in my home state of New Jersey, to name just one other clear example.

Quote from: Matt_Ward on April 15, 2007, 02:58:35 PM

John:

Just a quick question - how do you see the state ratings within Indiana ?

Not horrible..I have not played Sycamore Hills but it surprises me at #2.  The list seems closer to reality than most.

1. Victoria National G.C., Newburgh
2. Sycamore Hills C.C., Fort Wayne
3. Wolf Run G.C., Zionsville
4. Crooked Stick G.C., Carmel
5. The Trophy Club, Lebanon*
6. Otter Creek G. Cse. (North/West), Columbus*
7. Purgatory G.C., Noblesville*
8. Prairie View G.C., Carmel*
9. The Fort G. Resort, Indianapolis*
10. South Bend C.C., South Bend
11. The Sagamore Club, Noblesville
12. Rock Hollow G.C., Peru*
13. Belterra G.C., Florence*
14. Warren G. Cse., Notre Dame*
15. Broadmoor C.C., Indianapolis

I have not played any of the top 4 but I would move South Bend CC and The Fort into #5 and #6, respectively. I have played Trophy Club (#5) and Otter Creek (#6) and would put both of these ahead of them.

MARYLAND
1. Congressional C.C. (Blue), Bethesda
2. Baltimore C.C. (East),Timonium
3. Caves Valley G.C., Owings Mills
4. Bulle Rock, Havre de Grace*
5. Congressional C.C. (Gold), Bethesda
6. Members Club at Four Streams, Beallsville
7. Columbia C.C., Chevy Chase
8. C.C. at Woodmore, Mitchellville
9. The Links at Lighthouse Sound, Bishopville*
10. Swan Point Yacht & C.C., Issue*
11. Bethesda C.C., Bethesda
12. Chevy Chase Club, Chevy Chase
13. Woodmont C.C. (North), Rockville
14. Beechtree G.C., Aberdeen*
15. Hunters Oak G.C., Queenstown*


I think there are a number of problems in rating state courses.
1.  Out of staters play the better known courses.
2.  Generally out of towners play courses that are in larger cities.  Unless they are driving they usually don't go to far afield.
3.  It is hard to get some courses on the list to be rated and difficult to get some off the list that don't belong.  For Instance, my club CC at Woodmore was not on the list to be rated until five years ago.  After the first ranking came out it was #12, then #10 and now #8.
FountainHead CC is wonderful old Donald Ross that is not even on the list to be rated.  If it were, I daresay it might receive some good scores.
3.  Many of the the in state raters play other courses with member friends or in inter-club play.  I'm not sure this is the best way for a course to be rated.  
4.  In staters don't particularly want to replay courses they dislike.
5.  Reputation is hard to overcome.  Go and play big Blue at Congressional and you already know it is supposed to be good.
6.  Some courses knock your socks of because of the "wow"  beauty factor. The Links at Lighthouse sound is on a georgous piece of property on the Assawoman Bay across from Ocean City, MD.  It has some great holes.  It has some awful holes.  I don't think it is in the top 50 in the state as far as golf is concerned.
7.  Some clubs have more than one or two raters as members.
8.  I think the best that state rankings can do is give a snapshot of what are some of the best courses in the state.  It will always be the weakest part of the ranking systems.
 9. Conditioning can both hurt and help a course to a great extent.  I also belong to Four Streams.  Last ranking it was #5.  It dropped to #6 this year. The last two years we had some significant conditioning problems.  My ranking in that category dropped from 8 to 5.  The course was the same only the grass changed.

Andy;

As I said in another thread, they cannot even get the best in Kentucky. And I cannot get them to come see. *shrug*

Doug

SS1, better lock your doors and not let the cats out. If you dare question moral certitude on this site you better prepare to face vengeful wrath.

The evidence available to answer the Shivas question is very interesting.  Several courses have suddenly appeared on the Golfweek list when members who are raters trumpeted the glory of their home course.  On the flip side the courses where Digest has member raters the courses either get lowered or thrown off the Digest list all together.  It seems to show that familiarity can fall on both sides of this issue when it comes down to submitting a number.  The cliche is just that.

The other side of your question is to me more interesting: How about the lack of familiarity and rankings.  By that I mean how about the courses that do not allow raters except as guests of members and have very limited memberships and limited access - how is it that their ratings change so dramatically?

Jerry,
If I understand your statement correctly the answer to that one is actually fairly simple I think. Because those courses don't have a large sample size of raters, every rater that does show up has a much larger impact on the overall number...causing larger shifts with 2-3 bad/good scores compared to the average.

A course that has had 100+ raters isn't going to be affected much barring some radical change to the course itself or a general shift over time.

Shivas:

Good point.

However, you need to read closely what I said previously.

I never recommended in-state ratings only be voted upon by people within that given area. No doubt -- having outside eyes provides meaningful perspective. However, the Digest results show less of an influence from the "insiders" who you might fear -- and more of an impact from those who are "spot" visitors to a given location.

I can name several states where this seems to have happened.

The issue is some sort of balance between those who have a better understanding of the courses in-state from having played them multiple times. I don't see it as a stretch that most people would agree that multiple plays of a given course(s) is better in developing a much more complete understanding of such course(s) than a simple one time play.

I also don't believe that those who are from a given area would have a habit in voting lower courses they know from such multiple plays. In fact -- I think having played multiple times might reflect positively for a number of such courses too.

Andy:

The credibility of the ratings isn't about who is at the very top -- it comes with understanding the middle portion as you mentioned. Too often the one-time visitors have a major impact in getting such courses placed. I can say with 1000000% Olde Stonewall is no where near being one of the top ten courses in PA -- there are a host of other similar type situations.

I agree - there is never going to be a 100% perfect system.
The issue with "consensus" is that often times you will have clear compromises that fall through the cracks. The lower you go with each state the more likely such a situation will happen. I just mention the fact that in certain particular states the actual results are beyond puzzling they are flat-out comical.