Is it fair to judge an architect on how he presents himself?

« **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:02:22 AM »

No! Quality of work and heart.

Cheers,
Stevo

« **Reply #26 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:08:09 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 31, 2007, 07:50:46 AM

One reason I will never be a fan of resort golf is that the first time I ever saw a blue tooth was at the Bandon Resort. I actually talked back to the guy until he pointed at his ear like I was the douche bag.

It is the pocket protector of the 2000's.....

« **Reply #27 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:16:16 AM »

I never thought people who wore pocket protectors were rude. Back when I would see someone wearing a pocket protector I would have compassion for their social plight but now when I see a blue tooth I have a feeling of disgust and hatred. note: I give ladies with a nice figure a pass if it provides an opportunity to balance their posture. I put pocket protectors up with the stylus that comes with your blackberry...use a toothpick for Gods sake.

« **Reply #28 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:18:43 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 30, 2007, 06:51:34 PM

As for divorce I would only use it as a piece of a puzzle. My number one man working for me now is the most loving and best family man I have ever known...

So, John:

Divorced = Bad Family Man?

If your Number One Man's wife walked out on him tomorrow, would that reflect badly on *him*?

« **Reply #29 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:20:14 AM »

JK:

Their personal lives??

This might explain why Toomey and Flynn only did about 35 courses instead of 350. Howard Toomey had a showgirl wife who could really get into the sauce and go hog wild if she was allowed to go near anyone particularly in cities.

Some say Toomey and Flynn bought their farm in Montgomery County to house their crew and do agronomic research but the truth is they bought that farm to keep Howard's showgirl wife from getting into the sauce and going hog wild around people at clubs and particularly in the city.

« **Reply #30 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:26:33 AM »

Quote from: Dan Kelly on March 31, 2007, 08:18:43 AM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 30, 2007, 06:51:34 PM
As for divorce I would only use it as a piece of a puzzle. My number one man working for me now is the most loving and best family man I have ever known...

So, John:

Divorced = Bad Family Man?

If your Number One Man's wife walked out on him tomorrow, would that reflect badly on *him*?

I didn't say divorced equals bad family man. It is only a small indicator of an inability to either work through problems or put up with an incredulous individual. note: There are some men that women do not walk out on...tough to get.

« **Reply #31 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:32:13 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 31, 2007, 08:16:16 AM

I never thought people who wore pocket protectors were rude. Back when I would see someone wearing a pocket protector I would have compassion for their social plight but now when I see a blue tooth I have a feeling of disgust and hatred. note: I give ladies with a nice figure a pass if it provides an opportunity to balance their posture. I put pocket protectors up with the stylus that comes with your blackberry...use a toothpick for Gods sake.

You're right...I never said rude.....the bluetoth can be rude....at any given time our practice putting green will have at least two peole putting and on bluetooh....and some on the range....

« **Reply #32 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:45:06 AM »

"One reason I will never be a fan of resort golf is that the first time I ever saw a blue tooth was at the Bandon Resort. I actually talked back to the guy until he pointed at his ear like I was the douche bag."

John Kavanaugh:

Do not be put off by people like that who have Blue Tooth phones growing out of their ear. Just do what I do if you want to speak to them----eg scream at them at the top of your lungs so they can hear you.

Or, alternatively, if that doesn't work simply call them up even if you're standing right next to them.

Actually, that's what I sometimes do with my wife when we're riding in the car together---I just use my cell phone to call her on her cell phone. It now takes her under 30 seconds to figure out what's going on.

Generally, I do that when I don't like the way our normal conversation is going. And I usually tell her I'll be busy for the next few hours and I'll call her as soon as I'm free.

« **Reply #33 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:26:41 AM »

I'd say anytime you are about to spend tens of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, EVERYTHING about a person's character and ethics is fair game.

I'd talk to anyone I could who has worked with the person--shapers, supers, owners, etc.

But, I wouldn't get too concerned about purely personal stuff (smoking, divorce, etc.)

« **Reply #34 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:49:19 AM »

It may not be fair to judge an architect on how he presents himself but it is fair to determine whether or not you want to WORK with someone on how he presents himself.

« **Reply #35 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:52:18 AM »

The real question is, is it fair to judge an architect by his hair?

More seriously.....I once had someone give me this advice: Don't do business with someone you don't like.

For most clients, the hiring of an architect to build(or rework) a course is a once in a lifetime endeavor. The client had better be sure that they will enjoy the companionship of the architect as well as his or her design capabilities.

I like Brad's comments too. One can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat others.

Just don't judge an architect by their right hand man....

Joe

« **Reply #36 on:** March 31, 2007, 03:04:38 PM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on March 31, 2007, 05:20:10 AM

Actually, the best guide to how people really are and what they are like to work with is not how they present themselves in formal settings before the media or in job interviews. It's seeing how they treat and work with their colleagues, or better yet, how they treat service staff (waiters and waitresses, bar tenders, taxi drivers) in informal everyday situations.

Wise words Mr K
No-one who has ever worked in the service indsustry ever snaps their fingers for service.
OT - slightly - there is only one way to get a maniac cab driver to slow down, short of cutting off his coke supply, and that is to tell him that you're nauseous and think you might be about to throw up (from Fran Lebowitz).

« **Reply #37 on:** March 31, 2007, 03:30:18 PM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on March 31, 2007, 05:20:10 AM

Tim Copeland, what you refer to as "personal" is actually professional, namely how they conduct their business.

I dont separate the two......if you suck at one you more than likely suck at the other.

Remember...that is Just my OPINION

« **Reply #38 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:02:41 PM »

Guys....we are drifting a little....the original thread was about whether we could judge an architects work by how he presents himself....not about what kind of person he might be by how he presents himself.

Why don't we start a new thread that contrasts how an architect treats taxi drivers, or how many divorces an architect has.... and how we might judge his work as a result?

« **Reply #39 on:** March 31, 2007, 09:03:56 PM »

Hmmmm?

No.

Just like any other profession, some gca's are great people, some are not. Whatever happens to them in their personal life, and how they present themselves, should be irrelevant.

[edit]
Does it matter that Miles Davis and John Lennon were reportedly @$$#*!&s? Is it fair to judge a musician on how he conducts himself?

However, I think of what Ol' Tom went through in his personal life, and it only adds to the great legacy that he left behind. Not only did he contribute to some historic golf courses, but he also dealt with family crisis the likes of which I can not fathom. In that case, I think he epitomizes all that we as decent golfers and people admire.

How did Colt or Ross or McKenzie conduct themselves? If it was in an inappropriate manner, does that matter?

When it comes to a man's legacy and how he conducted himself, do we hear about the good, the bad, or the ugly?

« **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2007, 10:50:57 PM »

Helped out on a Palmer sight 14 years ago,was just a peon,but will always remember how Arnie and his people always seemed positive and up beat.It was an aura,a gentleness,of subtle improvements and suggestions the helped us do a good final product.Arnie smiled and embrced the media,but more importantly he found time to speak to and with us that broke a sweat daily.He will always have class to me, as will his people who exuded Arnies best qualities......Greg

« **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2007, 11:55:14 PM »

Adam,

I suggest you get a little info on MacKenzie's personal life and its intrusion into his professional life, then post on here.

I'm curious to see how as a result others on this board might judge him, his work, and their propensity to hire him.

Mark

« **Reply #42 on:** April 01, 2007, 10:12:15 AM »

Quote from: Chris Cupit on March 31, 2007, 09:26:41 AM

I'd say anytime you are about to spend tens of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, EVERYTHING about a person's character and ethics is fair game.

I'd talk to anyone I could who has worked with the person--shapers, supers, owners, etc.

But, I wouldn't get too concerned about purely personal stuff (smoking, divorce, etc.)

Chris,
I think I have read where one group of architects says it is best to judge architects by their peers.......whoa on that one.....don't ever judge an architect by another architect's opinion.....you never know how that one will turn out....but I do assume most would be polite about it....and I would say the same for supts and shapers etc.....the business is too close for that and too many people are always playing politics for the available work so you never know plus most don't know the whys of why something is like it is...But I do agree on owners....if an architect gets along with owners ...good indication....
Mike

« **Reply #43 on:** April 01, 2007, 10:54:43 AM »

I think you should judge em by how they smell.. them old guys wore those coats and jackets all the time because it helped cover up the body odors from not bathing regularly.. give me a guy in unpretentious garb any day..

« **Reply #44 on:** April 01, 2007, 05:31:10 PM »

Quote from: Mike_Young on April 01, 2007, 10:12:15 AM

Quote from: Chris Cupit on March 31, 2007, 09:26:41 AM
I'd say anytime you are about to spend tens of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, EVERYTHING about a person's character and ethics is fair game.

I'd talk to anyone I could who has worked with the person--shapers, supers, owners, etc.

But, I wouldn't get too concerned about purely personal stuff (smoking, divorce, etc.)

Chris,
I think I have read where one group of architects says it is best to judge architects by their peers.......whoa on that one.....don't ever judge an architect by another architect's opinion.....you never know how that one will turn out....but I do assume most would be polite about it....and I would say the same for supts and shapers etc.....the business is too close for that and too many people are always playing politics for the available work so you never know plus most don't know the whys of why something is like it is...But I do agree on owners....if an architect gets along with owners ...good indication....
Mike

I hear you. I just want more info versus less and it's up to me as the owner to "filter out" anything I want. I will say that architects are generally very professional and don't have much negative to say about each other (at least in my experience). I will say that if I am interviewing someone and they are critical of others or always seem to have comments like "what an idiot so and so is, or how over rated this or that was" it would end up hurtung that person and their chances for a job at my place.

Sell yourself, don't denigrate others.

I will say many are very hesitant to say much of anything--fear of being sued or whatever!

« **Reply #45 on:** April 01, 2007, 05:36:56 PM »

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 01, 2007, 05:31:10 PM

Quote from: Mike_Young on April 01, 2007, 10:12:15 AM
Quote from: Chris Cupit on March 31, 2007, 09:26:41 AM
I'd say anytime you are about to spend tens of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars, EVERYTHING about a person's character and ethics is fair game.

I'd talk to anyone I could who has worked with the person--shapers, supers, owners, etc.

But, I wouldn't get too concerned about purely personal stuff (smoking, divorce, etc.)

Chris,
I think I have read where one group of architects says it is best to judge architects by their peers.......whoa on that one.....don't ever judge an architect by another architect's opinion.....you never know how that one will turn out....but I do assume most would be polite about it....and I would say the same for supts and shapers etc.....the business is too close for that and too many people are always playing politics for the available work so you never know plus most don't know the whys of why something is like it is...But I do agree on owners....if an architect gets along with owners ...good indication....
Mike

I hear you. I just want more info versus less and it's up to me as the owner to "filter out" anything I want. I will say that architects are generally very professional and don't have much negative to say about each other (at least in my experience). I will say that if I am interviewing someone and they are critical of others or always seem to have comments like "what an idiot so and so is, or how over rated this or that was" it would end up hurtung that person and their chances for a job at my place.

Sell yourself, don't denigrate others.

I will say many are very hesitant to say much of anything--fear of being sued or whatever!

agree

« **Reply #46 on:** April 02, 2007, 01:44:42 PM »

In hindsight would you pass over Einstein as your Physicist because he was having a bad hair day

Brilliance is often overlooked by mundane thought.
Stevo

« **Reply #47 on:** April 02, 2007, 02:54:10 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 30, 2007, 05:08:02 PM

Quote from: Tim Copeland on March 30, 2007, 05:03:11 PM
I would rather look at how they conduct their personal affairs....at least that has been my experience

I try to avoid hiring people who have been divorced for high level jobs but that may not be fair when considering an architect given all the travel. What do you mean by personal affairs?

That means two of the guys that did designs at Bandon are out of the job for you...

and one other from Texas that posts on here. I would not call any of them quitters.

« **Reply #48 on:** April 02, 2007, 03:05:11 PM »

My answer is no way.

As long as the course rocks....who cares?

Mackenzie sounds like he was a bit abrasive. Wasn't S. Thompson drunk all the time?

RTJones sold himself like none other, but maybe he should have focused on his craft a little more $:-\$

« **Reply #49 on:** April 02, 2007, 03:11:43 PM »

That bit about MacKenzie was interesting.

While he was a brilliant architect in my opinion and did some amazing stuff, I question how much he was the kind of guy to hang out and have a beer with. In much of his writing he comes off as a "my way or the highway" kind of guy and often condescending.

In the spirit of this thread though, if I had a time machine and the wherewithal, I would have him design my "dream course" in a hot second.

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