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George Pazin

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Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2007, 05:15:46 PM »
I would take my chances out of the desert rather than most of these alternate situations.

In my limited desert experience - 7 or 8 courses, depending on what you count - there are two types of desert courses: rock strewn desert, which is 100% unrecoverable, like water, and sandy desert, which I have no problem hitting out of. Unfortunately, of the courses I've played, the former tends to dominate. Also, desert courses seem to have a lot of water as well - maybe not as much as Florida, but far more than most parkland courses.

For me, rock strewn desert aside, it's largely aesthetic - the desert itself may be beautiful, but the contrast with bright green grass is somewhat nauseating. A course like Wolf Creek just reeks of that stupid "Toughest Golf Holes You've Never Played" calendar.

Also, due to the manufactured quality of the courses I've played, one of the absolute last things that I would say characterises them is the undulating land that you cite. To me, they rival golf ranges for flat lies.

Fairway or death, flat lie or elevated flat lie, green against brown - it just doesn't add up to golf to me.

Hopefully I'll get to play some other desert courses that will change my mind someday.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2007, 05:16:10 PM »
It isn't bad.  It's just that you can't hit your foul balls and foolishly trying can lead to a lot of pain and even possible death.

I do not think a desert course is necesarily more punishing on foul balls.

Is it worse than a pond teeming with alligators?  
Worse than gorse infested dunes and rough on a links course or at Bandon?  
Worse than cliffs?  
Worse than out of bounds fence?  
Worse than a forest, at least one with bears?  
Worse than the non grassed areas of Pine Valley?

I would take my chances out of the desert rather than most of these alternate situations.
the cacti and rattlesnakes only add to the charm.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2007, 05:20:35 PM »
 Use gulches and arroyos, people.  
As was done at Pelican Hill, where the rugged arroyos offset the fairways which genuflect to blah blah blah.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Doug Ralston

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2007, 05:54:27 PM »


On a global scale, it's bad because it uses enormous quantities of water to irrigate grass in a climate that should not see any.

In other words, it's a huge waste of a precious resource.  Some would even say that golf in the desert is, in a way, almost unethical.  



My head hurts and I get dizzy when I read this sort of thing.

The benefits to senior citizens (and others) being active, getting healthy and productive far outweigh any damage or inethicality of watering plant life. Maybe we should just let it run into the oceans and cause the seas to rise and flood us all out?

That watered plant life helps defeat GLOBAL WARMING!!!! if you drink that Kool-aid.

Don't forget the pesticides and fertilizers making kids retarded and giving them perangial hemangioendotheliomas of the anvil of the middle ear.

So which is it going to be?   ??? ??? ???

The planet is not that goddamn fragile,  people!

Denial is so amazingly easy. Humans simply are great at rationalizing what they desire in place of reality.

I drank the Kool Aid!

Global Warming is so fricking easy. You measure temps in 25,000 places around the World, and keep records [which has been done since the 1890's, at least. Then you do the math. Difficult math here? Try adding temps, dividing by # of measures. ah, an average. Now compare to years previous and afterward.

Answer: Are avg temps rising? If yes [and they ARE], Global Warming. If no [sorry Mr Vostinak], cool!

Rationalizations coming.

To Ran: I did NOT bring this up, and it is only 'political' to those who deny science when it suits them. Delete if you must, but here you are off base if you do.

Doug

PS: If Lakota Canyon is 'Desert Golf', then I certainly love desert golf.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2007, 07:10:07 PM »
I have to say that I find desert golf unethical until proven otherwise. I do not claim to be an expert, but those who do have thus far failed to provide any serious evidence, at least to me. I know for a fact that there are golf courses in Andalucia that irrigate with groundwater.

I would be very interested to read scientific studies about the ecobalance of desert golf. What are the effects on native species? How much water is used compared to an average non-desert course? Where is this water coming from? Where would it go, if there weren't a golf course? What is the lowdown on pesticides in a desert environment? Of the many golf courses, who hold a recognized eco-certificate, how many are in the desert? And so on.

Shame on Tiger, for not being asking these questions in Dubai - he would actually be in a position to get some answers... if there are any.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jim Bearden

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2007, 07:59:46 PM »
I spent several years going to the Palm Springs area a friend was an assistant pro at La Quinta so I played all associated courses (for free) and I liked it a lot. The only problem that I had is hitting off the desert, becauseI don't have the club budget pros have.

My father was a founding director of Vintage and is one of my favorite desert courses While I like the Mountain course my favorite is the desert course just more pretty to me and more challenging because it is so narrow, What was great was I had a permanent guest card and playing cost nothing to me or my father something I had never heard of before so I could play anytime I wanted which I did.

Tom Renli

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2007, 09:42:57 PM »
Jason,
I feel fortunate to be able to play year round.  Golf in AZ is a lot about the weather.  Living here the courses all seem to run together after a while.  The desert courses seem to be at their best the day they open and go down hill from there.  I believe it is driven by housing and the sun wears them out, unlike other climates where the courses grow in.  

The Raven is a good example, never a great course, but good when it opened, they lack money so nature is defraying it.  

The other issue is the stereotypical but largely true scenario is a Northerner who has not played in months, pays an inflated green fee to play intimidating target golf they are unfamiliar with.   They play poorly, if they are competitive, it detracks from their experience.

The courses are built for resort golfers, ie most would rather play a poor golf course and stay at a nice play with nightlife than the opposite.

I am always amazed at how much Desert Forest flies under the radar with the locals, pros don't play there and it is not marketed to death so it must not be any good.  Cheers, Tom

Jason Blasberg

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2007, 09:57:42 PM »
The only thing wrong with desert golf is everything, unless you've played it at Stone Eagle . . . and then there's nothing wrong but rather, everything right.  

Stone Eagle transcends desert golf which is something I've never experienced before.

Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2007, 10:30:56 PM »

My head hurts and I get dizzy when I read this sort of thing.

The benefits to senior citizens (and others) being active, getting healthy and productive far outweigh any damage or inethicality of watering plant life. Maybe we should just let it run into the oceans and cause the seas to rise and flood us all out?

That watered plant life helps defeat GLOBAL WARMING!!!! if you drink that Kool-aid.

Don't forget the pesticides and fertilizers making kids retarded and giving them perangial hemangioendotheliomas of the anvil of the middle ear.

So which is it going to be?   ??? ??? ???

The planet is not that goddamn fragile,  people!

W.Vostinak,

Your sad reply is what makes my head hurt and get dizzy....

I'm not saying that desert golf is totally crazy, but even if the courses are irrigated with wastewater, we have to think about where that water comes from in the first place.

Developping entire cities in the middle of the desert is not my idea of sustainable developpment....  How long can this last?

Please don't try to convince me that senior citizens and others, as you say it, are getting active in that heat in the middle of the summer.  They're probably at home, enjoying their swimming pool or their air conditionning while the courses are irrigating to stay alive....

That being said, I will probably continue to enjoy desert golf if I have the chance to travel there again.  I just wonder how long it will take before its just not possible any more.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2007, 09:45:10 AM »
I do not think a desert course is necesarily more punishing on foul balls.

Is it worse than a pond teeming with alligators?  
Worse than gorse infested dunes and rough on a links course or at Bandon?  
Worse than cliffs?  
Worse than out of bounds fence?  
Worse than a forest, at least one with bears?  
Worse than the non grassed areas of Pine Valley?

I would take my chances out of the desert rather than most of these alternate situations.

Having just returned from AZ, I'm inclined to agree with you... as long as we're not talking about one of the "Condo Canyon" designs with houses close on both sides of every fairway.

I played Longbow twice, and Alta Mesa CC once over the weekend, and I am learning to like Longbow more over time. (It's only 2 minutes from my mother's house, and one of the people I played with has the Flight Pass, which offers half-price green fees. And, the pass is good for a discount at We-Ko-Pa)

Anyway, I am 10-handicap, a crooked driver, and never lost a ball or took a penalty stroke in 54 holes.

Like others, however, I do have some lingering concerns about desert development and the water issues. But it's pretty clear my concerns aren't having any effect.

K
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 09:46:34 AM by KMoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2007, 12:07:51 PM »
Anyway, I am 10-handicap, a crooked driver, and never lost a ball or took a penalty stroke in 54 holes.

First off, welcome to the site.

Second, if you didn't lose a ball or incur a penalty stroke in 54 holes of desert golf, sorry, you're not a crooked driver. You might think you are, but you're not. And there's nothing wrong with that. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2007, 12:10:16 PM »
Damn...I had one of the funniest answers to Jason's questions yesterday and someone came in my office and I lost the post.  

I'll try to recreate it again today, but that spark of lightning brilliance only comes by once every few years so I'm sure it will be disappointing.   :-[

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2007, 12:13:08 PM »
Come to think of it, this thread reminds me of the old Sam Kinison routine, where he's talking about the problem of starving people in the Third World and comes up with some advice that goes something like, "I know what you should do....MOVE...MOVE...(screamed)...you live in the F*cking desert.....see this?   It's SAND....NOTHING GROWS HERE....MOVE!!!!"
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 12:15:24 PM by MPCirba »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2007, 02:43:39 PM »
Anyway, I am 10-handicap, a crooked driver, and never lost a ball or took a penalty stroke in 54 holes.

First off, welcome to the site.

Second, if you didn't lose a ball or incur a penalty stroke in 54 holes of desert golf, sorry, you're not a crooked driver. You might think you are, but you're not. And there's nothing wrong with that. :)

Well, I can certainly see why you'd say that, but I am crooked. I am also short off the tee. So sometimes it works out OK.

The other factor is that the two courses I played aren't THAT punishing.

Finally, there's the luck factor. I hit at least 10 drives that deserved to incur some penalty strokes, but in each case they either were off line in the "safe" direction, or so poorly hit that they didn't reach the trouble. And the one case where I had to hit a provisional, the first ball must have hit the wall that defines the course, because I not only found it, it was on grass!

Despite golfer's theories, not all luck is bad.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2007, 12:03:37 AM »
Just curious, where does the water most of these desert courses in AZ are irrigated with come from?

I'm surprised they allow courses to use anything other than wastewater there to be honest, since the area keeps growing and eventually golf courses that use any fresh water source that's a common resource for the area or region such as rivers or especially aquifers (i.e., wells) are going to come under more and more scrutiny.

I guess unless the course is sited near a water treatment plant, the cost of pumping wastewater to it would be prohibitive, so I wonder if the development of new courses in the desert preferentially occurs in the area of a treatment plant just to be future proofed in case population growth forces communities to make tough choices?  Its hard to tell your residents they can't water their lawns or wash their cars, while the golf course next door dumps millions of gallons of water to keep 90 acres of grass emerald green!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jim Nugent

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2007, 02:20:48 AM »
I asked this question on the AZ tripleheader thread, and didn't get an answer.  Maybe it's so off the wall it doesn't deserve one, but I'll ask again anyway.  

My impression is that Pine Valley was built in a sandy wasteland, with few trees.  Crump and Co. made islands of fairways and greens surrounded by a sea of sand.  Is that so, and if so, isn't that much like modern desert golf?  

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2007, 08:47:24 AM »
Doug,
Just about every golf course built in the last few years in AZ, near PHX or Tucson, is irrigated with reclaimed water. Some still use Colorado River water, but very few use groundwater.
In AZ it's the law that you must use reclaimed if it is available, and since it's also a revenue generator, it's usually made available, and using reclaimed is often a big part of the approval process.
Now, the tribal courses are not required to use reclaimed, although I think some do use it.
Both Phx and Tucson have well designed reclaimed delivery systems that have worked well to assure that almost all golf courses in the metropolitan areas use reclaimed.  
I know Las Vegas has made a large push toward the use of reclaimed, but I don’t know the particulars.
Palm Springs (Coachella Valley) has talked about it for years, but little has been done there in terms of action.

It’s really quite interesting to compare perception with reality. California likes to market itself as progressive and “green”, yet it is far behind the curve in regards to water conservation to a State like AZ, which implemented water conservation laws in the late 80’s.
Along the same lines, Oregon, which again likes to sell itself as “green” has pesticide laws that are less restrictive then a state like TX where the national perception is everything goes. Things aren’t always as they seem.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2007, 05:24:47 PM »
I love the desert and like playing golf there. But desert courses couldn't exist without tampering with nature in an extreme way.  On the other side of the coin, links golf in its original state involved almost no tampering with nature.  No matter how clever the architect or beautiful the result, desert courses lack the authenticity of links or even parkland courses.

Matt_Ward

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2007, 11:31:37 AM »
Jim N:

In a word -- yes.

Don M:

Great post and solid info to keep in mind.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2007, 11:51:09 AM »
Palm Springs (Coachella Valley) has talked about it for years, but little has been done there in terms of action.

It’s really quite interesting to compare perception with reality. California likes to market itself as progressive and “green”, yet it is far behind the curve in regards to water conservation to a State like AZ, which implemented water conservation laws in the late 80’s.
Doesn't the Coachella Valley have a lot of fresh water, despite being in the desert?  I could swear I remember that when he was mayor of Palm Springs Sonny Bono offered to share (Cher?) his extra water with LA - for a fee of course.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2007, 12:06:41 PM »
But desert courses couldn't exist without tampering with nature in an extreme way.  On the other side of the coin, links golf in its original state involved almost no tampering with nature.  No matter how clever the architect or beautiful the result, desert courses lack the authenticity of links or even parkland courses.

Second that. They are the Pamela Anderson of golf courses: completely artificial, even if some can't help admiring the effort.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2007, 12:39:19 PM »
I only have a second, but did want to answer part of Jason Topp and Jim Nugent's question comparing the sandy waste areas at Pine Valley to desert golf.

In comparison to desert golf, the off fairway areas at Pine Valley are akin to a soft, cuddly, silken, baby's quilt wrapped in cotton and covered with talcum powder.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2007, 02:47:16 PM »
Soft and cuddly?




Mean and nasty?



Mike_Cirba

Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2007, 03:40:20 PM »
Soft and cuddly?




Mean and nasty?




Jason,

I could disrobe, lay on my side at the top of that hill and roll all the way down to the other side without much worse than a coupl'a scrapes and brushburns...

In the desert, I wouldn't roll 3 feet on flat ground dressed like an eskimo without fear of maiming or death.



"In the desert, you can remember your name, cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain" - America
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:50:21 PM by MPCirba »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why is desert golf bad?
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2007, 03:52:08 PM »


Jason,

I could disrobe, lay on my side at the top of that hill and roll all the way down to the other side without much worse than a coupl'a scrapes and brushburns...

In the desert, I wouldn't roll 3 feet naked on flat ground without fear of maiming or death.


Not good.  

I'm playing in Phoenix on Sunday and now I'm going to have to contend with the image of Billy Bob Thornton rolling around the desert.


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