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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2007, 08:42:48 PM »
Uh oh -- I just quoted your Reply #21!!! Is there a lawyer in the house?

Ahh- my disclamer at the bottom of my posts.  ;D Jason can quote my fictional and non-factual posts as he chooses.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2007, 08:43:08 PM »
Jason, do you have any photo's of the original clubhouse that you could post? I was trying to exlain to someone what it looked like before it burned down. I remember it being one of the neatest looking clubhouses I've ever seen.  

 

David I do not but one is posted in Ran's review.  I can hunt around and see what I can find.


Thanks Jason. I had forgoteen that that was on Ran's review.

Talk about a Seinfeld-ambiguity moment  ;D. . . David, I thought you were asking me about the original Engineers clubhouse, as it did burn down and there is a picture of it in Ran's review, but Brad thinks you're talking about TR and I seem to recall a fire there too?  I don't see any clubhouse pics of TR on Ran's review . . . which clubhouse are you looking for just for the record?

Brad which clubhouse are you talking about?

Who's on first?

Jason Blasberg

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2007, 08:50:21 PM »
Uh oh -- I just quoted your Reply #21!!! Is there a lawyer in the house?

Ahh- my disclamer at the bottom of my posts.  ;D Jason can quote my fictional and non-factual posts as he chooses.

Dr. C,

Thanks for your express written consent . . . but since all your stuff is fictional when you said I was your lawyer I have to ask . . . are you not you?  Am  I not me?  Or am I not your lawyer?  ;) ;)  

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2007, 09:49:58 PM »
Perhaps this is a question fit for a new topic, but since Strantz's passing, has his former right-hand-mad Forrest Fezler been designing any courses?  I have read that Fezler has/had a similar but more subdued vision than Strantz.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2007, 08:54:28 AM »
Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?

OK.....what is the point?

Should there be more?

Let me just ask a question.  First I don't know much about MS work other than have played a couple of them in the Carolinas....and my brother in law worked for him doing irrigation....
Will most owners maintain his courses as they are today or will they be changed for ecomomic reasons and playability?  I don't know...
No disrespect meant...just what I consider a reasonable question.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2007, 09:37:10 AM »
Jason, if I were to do a detailed statistical analysis of the distribution curve for each architect, you'd find that Strantz leads the field in diversity of judgments on him. In other words, he tends to spread the field more than any other architect. Pete Dye is probably second. Fazio is at the opposite end of the spectrum, with a very tight distribution pattern of votes.

What I think I see with Strantz, and it's an impression that I'm not really sure I can verify given our limited information retreival on this, is that Strantz garners a good mix of 6s-7s-8s-9s but also more 4's and 5s than a lot of other big name, creative designers. Dye, tends simply to polarize, with the votes being not so much evenly distributed as more split. Fazio clusters.

In other words, Strantz's creativity is stirring and impressive, but also a bit jarring. For everyone who thinks Caledonia's little par-3 9th is a great contrast hole, there are raters who think it hokey and shoe-horned in as an afterthought. The same goes for some of his green complexes -- this as far as I can tell from a gleening of the data, as well as conversations with raters.

Personally, I find some of his work absolutely stunning (Caledonia, Monterey Peninsula-Shore, and some of it absurd (Stonehouse). And some of it all at once (Tobacco Road). But I also love playing his courses for the strong emotions they elicit.

Brad....I found these too be interesting comparisons and indicators of how ratings compile. Thankyou.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2007, 11:03:42 AM »
Jason, if I were to do a detailed statistical analysis of the distribution curve for each architect, you'd find that Strantz leads the field in diversity of judgments on him. In other words, he tends to spread the field more than any other architect. Pete Dye is probably second. Fazio is at the opposite end of the spectrum, with a very tight distribution pattern of votes.

What I think I see with Strantz, and it's an impression that I'm not really sure I can verify given our limited information retreival on this, is that Strantz garners a good mix of 6s-7s-8s-9s but also more 4's and 5s than a lot of other big name, creative designers. Dye, tends simply to polarize, with the votes being not so much evenly distributed as more split. Fazio clusters.

In other words, Strantz's creativity is stirring and impressive, but also a bit jarring. For everyone who thinks Caledonia's little par-3 9th is a great contrast hole, there are raters who think it hokey and shoe-horned in as an afterthought. The same goes for some of his green complexes -- this as far as I can tell from a gleening of the data, as well as conversations with raters.

Personally, I find some of his work absolutely stunning (Caledonia, Monterey Peninsula-Shore, and some of it absurd (Stonehouse). And some of it all at once (Tobacco Road). But I also love playing his courses for the strong emotions they elicit.

Brad....I found these too be interesting comparisons and indicators of how ratings compile. Thankyou.

I also thought that this is one of the more rational explanations of the difficulties that MS courses face in the rankings.

But to me, the last sentence is the key.  I just haven't played very many courses that make me think harder, or laugh out loud more, or want to come back as much as the Road or Caledonia or True Blue or Tot Hill.  

I am NOT anti-rankings at all; I enjoy them hugely.  But I do think that rankings with a formula might sometimes lend somewhat formulaic results.  Strantz set the bar very, very high by attempting huge things in GCA, and IMO he is penalized for that in the rankings.  So be it, but that is much, much more a flaw in the rankings than in his golf courses.  

Give me one more round to play in my life and put me on any Strantz course, and I guarantee you I enjoy the round more than  many, many of the "Top 100".  The guy built transcendent golf courses, artistic golf courses, cool golf courses.   Those are not ranking criteria, and more's the pity.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jason Blasberg

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2007, 12:11:29 PM »
Give me one more round to play in my life and put me on any Strantz course, and I guarantee you I enjoy the round more than  many, many of the "Top 100".  The guy built transcendent golf courses, artistic golf courses, cool golf courses.   Those are not ranking criteria, and more's the pity.

A.G.:

You make a great point.  But I have one counterpoint of shorts:  I often play "ranked courses" (not from any particular list but "ranked" on one or more of them) and leave the course rather unaffected.  

One of the things that distinguishes every Strantz coures I've played (save Stone House) is that ranked or unranked I'm excited about the round and looking forward to another one.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2007, 02:10:21 PM »
I think I'm hearing that one of the criteria for rankings should be the "Fun" factor, however one defines it.

I also think I'm hearing about another possible category which argues that architect's should get some additional points for pushing the envelope, for being daring, for stretching the boundaries of what constitutes golf course design, and while that may be true, I'm also thinking that Desmond Muirhead would get a 10 on many of his courses if such a category existed and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

redanman and I had a conversation recently that discussed "fairness", and about which modern architects are willing to push into that red-line territory, and how close each is willing to edge towards what might be viewed as unfair, unconventional, and even sometimes head-scratchingly baffling.  That doesn't mean they always succeed (sometimes these holes fail miserably), but it does mean that they also sometimes break new ground and create almost wholly original and daringly exciting holes.

Using three very popular and exceptional architects (C&C, Doak, & Hanse)as examples, we agreed that C&C were the least likely to create something viewed as unfair.   Doak is a bit more willing to walk that tightrope, while Hanse generally stays very close to the edge on almost all of his holes.  Kelly Moran is another one who seems to design without a care of what the modern golfer thinks is fair, or appropriate, and it certainly makes for some original designs and exciting golf, unless one is too much of a card and pencil type.

Strantz is also someone who fit in the category of breaking molds and stereotypes, but in a bit of a different way than some of the others.   As mentioned previously, sometimes it fails grandly, while other times the results are original and sublime, but boredom is never, ever the issue.  

Jay Flemma

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2007, 02:17:51 PM »
With all due repect to good taste and Mike...that portrait looks like it is painted on velvet.

The only portrait I have seen that compares in lack of quality is that of Venturi in the Riviera lockeroom.  Now the painting of Tommy Bolt is museum quality...best golf portrait I have seen.

It looks that way because Mike always liked watercolor best and they commissioned the portrait of him in the medium he most liked to use.  It's what they thought Mike would have liked.

By the way, when they unveiled it at Bulls Bay, there wasn't a dry eye in the house.  How can you say "lack of quality," you haven't been to Bulls Bay to see it first hand.  It's superb and everyone at BB reveres it.  What do you know from half the country away that they don't as members and friends of Mike?

For those of you scoring at home, the horse's name is Degas (pronounced DAY-gus) and the retrievers are Greta and Sophie.  He's looking over the 18th green.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 02:49:13 PM by Jay Flemma »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2007, 02:20:33 PM »
This has been a really good thread, especially for a newcomer like me. Thanks to all for the input.

My two cents: in my experience with creative endevours, the number of people who can make (or are willing to make) the distinction between "this works" and "I like this" is quite small.

That seems like one of the main challenges to getting "correct" rankings; but on the other hand, even defining the main criteria for what "works" seems like a challenge in itself.  

Peter
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 06:53:28 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Only 1 Original Strantz Design is a top 100?
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2007, 04:33:23 PM »
Just to expand slightly on my thoughts about fairness and an architect's willingness to drive one's hole designs to a point where fairness is questionable, I find that the subject of half-par holes plays greatly into the discussion.  

So does the idea of holes with a wide potential variance in scoring.


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