Shane is exactly right -- the first thing we need to do is eliminate the concept of "women's tees." I know that "forward tees" does not come easily to the lips of those of us who have been playing the game for 30 years or more, but that's what they are, and that's what they should be called. Or maybe use a simple numbering system -- first tee, second tee, third tee, etc., depending on how many tee boxes a course offers.

And once we eliminate the stigma of the forward tees, we've got to place them in better spots, as Jeff and Dan suggest.

Men stigmatize the forward tees.  Would moving them more forward make them less stigmatizing?  No.  What would make them less stigmatizing is if more men played from them.

I have found it most fun designing a set of tees at 4500 yards.  There can be so many different looks at holes, and they can easily be placed so a bunker or hazard is in play.
Don has been the resatraint keeping me from too many, but I did put one in while he was at the Golf Show for the whole week.  It is very nice.

Quote from: Rick Shefchik on March 07, 2007, 12:00:39 AM

And once we eliminate the stigma of the forward tees, we've got to place them in better spots, as Jeff and Dan suggest.

Men stigmatize the forward tees.  Would moving them more forward make them less stigmatizing?  No.  What would make them less stigmatizing is if more men played from them.

Cassandra -- Rick can speak for himself (obviously), but seeing as he's probably out on another whirlwind round of interviews, photo shoots, and talk shows (fame can be, well, murder!), I'll speak for him.

He's not suggesting that the forward tees should be moved farther forward (as a general rule). He's suggesting that they should be placed where they BELONG -- instead of wherever they might be out of the way of the men's. [Oops. Out of the way of the back tees.] (Cf. Jeff Brauer's post, above, and my first on this thread.)

Sometimes that would be farther forward; sometimes it wouldn't; sometimes it might even be behind the back tees.

And he is CERTAINLY not disagreeing (on the contrary!) with this statement of yours: "What would make them less stigmatizing is if more men played from them."

I guess he just needs an editor!  

Quote from: Cassandra Burns on March 07, 2007, 10:42:47 AM

Quote from: Rick Shefchik on March 07, 2007, 12:00:39 AM

And once we eliminate the stigma of the forward tees, we've got to place them in better spots, as Jeff and Dan suggest.

Men stigmatize the forward tees.  Would moving them more forward make them less stigmatizing?  No.  What would make them less stigmatizing is if more men played from them.

Cassandra -- Rick can speak for himself (obviously), but seeing as he's probably out on another whirlwind round of interviews, photo shoots, and talk shows (fame can be, well, murder!), I'll speak for him.

He's not suggesting that the forward tees should be moved farther forward (as a general rule). He's suggesting that they should be placed where they BELONG -- instead of wherever they might be out of the way of the men's. [Oops. Out of the way of the back tees.] (Cf. Jeff Brauer's post, above, and my first on this thread.)

Sometimes that would be farther forward; sometimes it wouldn't; sometimes it might even be behind the back tees.

And he is CERTAINLY not disagreeing (on the contrary!) with this statement of yours: "What would make them less stigmatizing is if more men played from them."

I guess he just needs an editor!  

Hi Dan,

This is an oops on my part.  I didn't mean to stigmatize Rick, nor to imply that he doesn't have an appreciation for what we face on the golf course.  I'm sorry, Rick!  

Rather, I was still thinking of another reason why the club women would be opposed to moving up their tee boxes.  They might feel that it would only increase the stigma they feel from the men about playing from the forward tees.  I was trying to bring that thought in to the conversation and Rick's comment seemed like a nice lead in.  In hindsight, I think I should have just added it to my existing post, rather than putting it off on its own.  I guess I'm the one who needs an editor!

Cassandra --

"Oops" happily accepted (by proxy).

From my own, decidedly male ( ) point of view: I've never looked down on a woman for her playing from the forward tees. Why would I? Nor have I ever heard any of my decidedly male (so far as I know!  ) playing companions expressing any disregard of any woman for her playing from the forward tees.

Perhaps this "stigma" is a figment of club women's imagination?

Maybe the guys I hang out with are uncommonly elevated in our sensibilities (I know some of us are!) -- but the only complaint I've heard, regularly, about women on the golf course is about their glacial pace of play.

I haven't observed that, myself, any more than I've observed male humans of various ages and types (the clueless cart-driving men, the Nicklaus imitators surveying their 3-foot putts from all angles, the idiots of every age who are NEVER ready to hit when it's their turn [at least till they've waggled from here halfway to eternity], the shuffling teenagers trying to set records for slowest gait) clogging up the course.

The few women I've played with more than once play relatively quickly (though I'm still working on my daughter, to get her to walk more quickly toward her ball).

But slow play is the gripe I hear -- and, I think, the biggest stigma women have to overcome.

I am glad was able to stir the pot just a little bit!

Dan

Can you say PW???

Let's face facts the number of women golfers is miniscule when compared to men golfers. I am not degrading women golfers but merely stating facts. The point of this post is women's tees as an after thought.

YES they are usually an after thought. Why would an architect design a course from the forward tee markers? At the Golf Digest Summit last year Jack Nicklaus pointed out that only until recently did he design a course from any tees other than the tips!

Take a look at any of the classic older courses and you will see that forward tees were nothing more than after thought. Only recently have architects gone to 5 or 6 sets of tee markers. Most of the new forward tees provide little strategy and merely accomodate short hitters.

Dan

Go Shopping. My shirt size is XL!  

I am glad was able to stir the pot just a little bit!

Dan

Can you say PW???

PW, eh? After thinking "Pitching Wedge" and knowing that couldn't be what you meant, I finally figured out your meaning.

I could say it, yes -- but, in the immortal words of Mr. Nixon, it would be wrong. Not only because it's rude, but also because it's nonsense.

Maybe Cassandra doesn't know what you mean by PW. I'll leave it to you to tell her.

Why would an architect design a course from the forward tee markers? At the Golf Digest Summit last year Jack Nicklaus pointed out that only until recently did he design a course from any tees other than the tips!

Proving: Even after all these years, Jack can learn.

Perhaps you can, too.

Cassandra --

Thanks for a great post.

So what we need is not only better-designed forward tees, but a massive PR campaign, by the golf course operators (and anyone else who'd care to join them; the USGA, maybe ... please!), emphasizing the simple fact that forward tees are there to increase the pleasure of playing golf for all of those who aren't "young guns."

Perhaps the golf course operators could sponsor a National "Play from the Front" Day, where only the front tees would be open ... and the men forced to play the front would come to realize that it's still GOLF, and it's still HARD, no matter which tees you play.

With luck, some of them would figure out that they'd have more fun playing golf from those tees.

Of course, there's nothing you can do (short of measures that would imperil the future of the species) about men giving each other crap. Boys will be boys! You wouldn't want it any other way.

Besides (and here's our big secret): We don't really mean any of it! It's just a way to get through the day, that's all.

Dan

I have had some hilarious conversations over the years about moving women's tees forward at older clubs.  The source of the problem is that the ladies' committee usually consists of the two best players at the club -- the champion and the runner-up -- who are fine with the tees they play, and don't want to be pandered to by a young, male golf architect.

Shouldn't these women be playing from the White tees that would generally be about 6000 yards or so?  The better female players at my club play from this distance, at least when they play with men or with other low handicap women.

Dan,

I love the idea of "Play from the Front" day, of closing down all but the forward tees!  But maybe a subtle campaign, rather than a massive one - I think a lot of fellows would resent being "forced" to do anything.  Maybe start by closing down the tips?  

Nope. That'll just peeve us off. Shutting down the tips just DENIES us something. It doesn't give us anything positive; nothing at all.

We want something positive.

Give us something to work with! Give us a game! Give us a challenge!

The game/challenge from the fronts is: Are you as good as you think you are, Big Boy? Well, then, prove it, pal.

Dan,

You crack me up. Now go get a hankie and wipe the spittle from your screen.

Cassandra,

I had never thought of that before. I would like to think that our score would drop accordingly but I am not sure. I would guess that we play 3 to 4 strokes better on average.

I just looked up the card online and they list the difference as two strokes so maybe that is pretty good. I just expected more.

I guess it seems like we should do so much better because there are so many opportunities to get within a wedge of the green off the tee. It really becomes a short game test. I guess it also exposes the short game weaknesses.

I had never thought of this but is that the proper way to view a rating?

It is heartwarming to see so much interest in this topic - I think that awareness is half the battle.

I have some comments.  

Firstly, I am a female golfer who plays at least three times per week.  I take lessons every now and then.  I can not remember a time my husband and I travelled without taking our clubs.  I have been playing for about 6 years and am a 12ish handicap.

- Women may not make up the majority of golfers but in my experience they make up the majority of midweek golfers.  Seniors and women have the run of most courses I play during the week.  Clubs could use those five days a week to get a lot more people playing.  If your weekend tee times are booked up that only leaves midweek to increase income - that is a good reason for giving thought to making the game more enjoyable from the forward tees.

- Women are accused of being slow players.  They aren't.  We do not re-enact the final putt of the Masters every time we have a five footer.  We are much more likely to pick up if we are out of a hole.  Our duck hooks etc don't go as far - making it easier to find the ball.  And, because the courses play long we sometimes don't have to wait for the green to clear to play our approach shots.  My ladies midweek three ball has played through (or been forced to wait behind) a two ball of men more times than I can remember.

- I should be out driving men.  That is, my ball should land in front of yours if we both hit our best drives.  I think that a 10 handicap male and I should be hitting around the same club for our approach shots (if we have both hit decent drives).  That will mean my ball has to be closer to the green.  

- I want to get into trouble.  Standing on the tee box I hear the guys I play with saying things like - can I carry that bunker or should I play short of it?  From the forward tees life becomes a case of hit it as far as you can and then do it again.  The trouble rarely comes into play off the tee.  

Basically, I want to face the same challenges and have the same quality of experience as a male golfer of a similar standard to me.  Hitting driver off every tee and a fairway wood to every green is not fun.  (And having to hear me complain about it is no bargain either!)

There are courses that get it right.  Here in Beijing I can think of two courses that are fun from the front tees.  Guess where the Beijing Ladies Golf group plays the most despite the fact that they are more expensive?  

Can you design a hole where the women have to worry about the same fairway bunkers as men and then are able to hit the same club to the green as the men?  Aren't the two mutually exclusive unless you have 30 yard long bunkers or a whole series of bunkers?

I'm not an architect, so I can't answer your question -- but will observe:

That's a mighty big "unless," don't you think?