Another interesting twist to this topic.

Virtually all discussions of gca assume the routing. It's rarely up for discussion, especially by laymen. From Darwin to Joshua Crane to Ron Whitten to us wingnuts, discussions of the quality of a design almost always assume the routing.

When alternate routings are discussed, it is usually by the architect himself. Because only he will know the land well enough to know the options he didn't take.

I think it gets back to visualization. Once you've seen a routing in the ground, it's extremely hard to visualize how it might have been done otherwise. Especially for non-architects. You have to really know the terrain well.

It's the "compared to what" part of the analysis. If you don't know everything about the terrain down to your bones, you won't know how to answer the question "compared to what?"  

Bob

Wayne,

Yes if you want me back!!  I was thinking of bringing Graeme with me this time.  Do you know if Barry (I hope I got his name right) got his magazines?

I tried to send you and Tom P a couple of files last week but they bounced back. Can you send me an email just to make sure I have the correct address.

Cheers,

Brian

Of course I would look forward to you visiting again.  Yours is an open invitation and one I hope you'll take up regularly.  We should try to get Lloyd Cole down and Craig Disher up during your visit.

Barry did get the magazines and is thrilled.  I'm surprised that he didn't thank you directly.  When I see him I'll tell him you were asking for him.

My email is wsmorrison@hotmail.com  I'll send you an email just to make sure you get it right.  

Mark,

I can bet you a lot of money that David Kidd would not have chosen the routing because of what Bill Yates had to say about the smoothest play for the life of the course.

Brian

How do you tell if a woman is good looking???

Joel,

Toomey didn't do any routing or design work, nor did Red Lawrence, William Gordon or Dick Wilson when employed by Flynn.  Dick Wilson was under the auspices of either Gordon or Lawrence, the construction foremen.  

Flynn was the exclusive designer for the firm.  Toomey oversaw the engineering and business end of things and was Flynn's partner in Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers.  The design work was contracted with William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect.

There are only a few holes that share the same ground for golf between the Macdonald design and Flynn.  New property was acquired by Lucien Tyng and holes 10-18 are on land that the club purchased just prior to Flynn's work.  Holes 4-6 was on land that was never used in the Macdonald routing.  Today's first hole plays along the corridor of the Macdonald 1st hole but the green is 50 yards further down the line of play.  Macdonald's green site can still be seen to the left of the two right fairway bunkers.  Flynn's par 3 second hole plays to the Macdonald green site of the former par 5 twelfth hole which was approached from a slightly different direction.  Flynn's third hole plays along the entire corridor of Macdonald's thirteenth.  Flynn's tee is much better located to the left of the second green.  Flynn redid the green (I'm pretty sure) and the bunkering is different, though a couple of Macdonald's bunkers were enlarged and reshaped.  The seventh tee was moved to the left of Macdonald's tee and is being restored after years of obsolescence.  The green was raised and rebuilt by Flynn.  Macdonald's green was below the current tee level and on natural ground that sloped right to left.  Flynn's green is built up several feet above the Macdonald green in nearly the same location, bunkered completely differently and the green outline is vastly different as well.  The eighth hole plays to the site of Macdonald's seventeenth hole (a Road green played from east to west, rather than the north to south orientation of Flynn's hole.  The green was entirely remodeled.  The ninth hole plays along the original corridor of Macdonald's eighteenth hole from a different tee (all the tees on the course are original Flynn tees--except the seventh but that is being corrected).  The green was saddled into the hillside while Macdonald's green was raised above the surrounding grade.

Mike,
Good to finally meet you out in LA.  Pace of play and a good routing can go hand in hand.  But as you well know, pace of play is dictated by much more than just the proximity of the greens and tees.  I don't know if you made it to Bill's seminar during the show, but between hearing that and having dinner with him the one evening, I have to say his ideas and observations are quite fascinating.  

"It is hard to tell from a routing plan.
Interestingly as simple as the routing for The Old Course appears, I was still immersed in the game."

Mike,
Most every time I play a round of golf I too get immersed in the game, and as others have pointed out, that probably means the routing is pretty good; it's certainly almost always good enough for me.  On the "small-scale", I can sometimes notice a certain feature and how it was or wasn't used; I'm trying to learn how to do that better, so I can think about/discuss these types of things more fully when I want.

But on the "large-scale", which was the second part of the question, I was asking about what I was missing/not seeing in terms of how the site was used as a whole, and whether the architect got the "most" out of a site. Often in writings and discussions about great courses old and new, "great routing" gets mentioned, sometimes in terms of how well the architect used the whole site and made the best course possible out of it. I didn't know how to even begin "looking" for that on the course, and was wondering what I was missing.    

But now you, and several others in this thread who would know, have said that -- EVEN WITH a routing plan and/or topographical map -- it's hard to know if the architect has gotten the most out of a site. And although that doesn't exactly answer the question I asked, it's a very helpful answer.

Thanks (to all)

Peter  

For Ed Getka's benefit, here's a good one:

Tom D, Mike Y, Brian P,

What have you guys learned in your time in the field to improve your routing evaluations? Something that might help you make a better routing, or more efficient, or even a quicker decision to get to the finished plan?

Thanks

JES,
I know that this.  If you have returning nines the downhill will equal the uphill.  
Mike

Who are the best modern-day writers on golf course architecture in terms of understanding the professional's goals (and constraints) in routing a course, and in fairly assessing the results?

In other words, who should I read?

Thanks
Peter