Re redanman and the C&C "one trick pony" designs:

Huh?  

I haven't played Kapalua Plantation, Sand Hills or Hidden Creek but I have played Cuscowilla, Friars Head, Bandon Trails, Talking Stick N&S, and Barton Creek.  The only common denominators are (1) great use of existing terrain (2) central bunker features (3) marvelous swooping greens, (4) "big feeling" courses.  The environment for each of the listed courses is different and so are the courses.  Bandon Trails and Friars Head were most alike in terms of setting, but even so very different.

So sorry, but I'm not buying this "one trick pony" concept.

Put me down as prefering the color photos, even if they would be mostly grey in the great tradition of the Oregon coast...I enjoy how Ran's review winds through the course like the course winds through the property...It is getting me pumped up for the 2 rounds I have scheduled at BT on Monday and Tuesday...Not to hash out another recent thread, but I am getting all of my gortex threads ready to gird my loins against the elements and escape to the "happiest place on earth", or at least Oregon...Anyone planning on being there Sunday through Tuesday?

OK, I know Ran seems to be asking to stick to the positives, but that's too easy.  It is a great course filled with great golf holes, and we could find something wonderful about each one, as he did in his review.

But are there holes that people didn't like?

The only one I'm kinda iffy on is 16.  It played well in the summer - into the wind - it was very challenging getting up that hill, and since going for the green in two was pretty much out of the question, it worked well trying to figure out the best place to leave the 2nd shot.  I liked it then.

Playing in the helping winter wind, I guess I should have moved back on the tees because even modest me got drives to where NOT going for the green was pretty much out of the question.  I mean when one is sitting there 185-200 to the green, downwind... well... it's tough to lay up... that takes more mental discipline than most golfers who can comfortably hit an iron 170 yards have.  This gives a problem in that that green, even as large as it is, really doesn't seem suited to long-range approaches.  The bunker and rough on the right are not happy places, so one tends to favor the left... and the problem is every single slightest miss left seems to find the same funnel, going down to the 17th tee.  It gets kind of absurd.  This makes the hole just play very awkward in the winter wind.

It's still a very majestic golf hole, and the fairway rolls are awesome... I'm just not sure the hole works all that well downwind.

Thoughts?

TH

Tom,

Are you sure you didn't just describe why 16 is a great hole?
 And why you are not a great player?
 

Garland - I know I am not a great player.  That's not up for discussion.  

But I get your point.  I'm just not sure I'm ready to call great a hole that's straight with no hazards and the truly best play half the year is driver-wedge-wedge.

Would you call that great?

Funny thing is, all they'd need to do to fix this is remove the funneling features left of the green.

Garland - I know I am not a great player.  That's not up for discussion.  

But I get your point.  I'm just not sure I'm ready to call great a hole that's straight with no hazards and the truly best play half the year is driver-wedge-wedge.

Would you call that great?

Funny thing is, all they'd need to do to fix this is remove the funneling features left of the green.

I doubt you are right about "half the year", I will accept three straight days when the same weather pattern holds up. Or predominantly during 3-4 months of the year. However, making you make the decision elevates it over a hole which Forrest calls "open" strategy, a nobrainer, you just go for it.

The only one I'm kinda iffy on is 16.  It played well in the summer - into the wind - it was very challenging getting up that hill, and since going for the green in two was pretty much out of the question, it worked well trying to figure out the best place to leave the 2nd shot.  I liked it then.

Playing in the helping winter wind, I guess I should have moved back on the tees because even modest me got drives to where NOT going for the green was pretty much out of the question.  I mean when one is sitting there 185-200 to the green, downwind... well... it's tough to lay up... that takes more mental discipline than most golfers who can comfortably hit an iron 170 yards have.  This gives a problem in that that green, even as large as it is, really doesn't seem suited to long-range approaches.  The bunker and rough on the right are not happy places, so one tends to favor the left... and the problem is every single slightest miss left seems to find the same funnel, going down to the 17th tee.  It gets kind of absurd.  This makes the hole just play very awkward in the winter wind.

Tom,

I know there are people who feel that the hole isn't that enjoyable to play in the summer wind.  I remember playing the hole with driver, 3 wood and 5 iron.  Nothing wrong with a difficult par 5, but uphill, against the wind, on the 34th hole of the day, it's a brute.  Driver, PW, PW sounds very foreign to me.  

Tim:

Having never played the winter wind before except for some brief shifts on previous trips, I found a LOT of very foreign plays this past weekend.  But such is the nature of strong winds that blow damn near opposite directions at different times.

I didn't mind that hole into the wind - it was a brute for sure, but that made it kinda fun and given it was so uphill, well there were zero expectations of it being anything but a three-shotter, so it became a challenge more than any strategic exercise.  With the downwind, it was just so "hit the green or else" that it really became anti-strategic also... perhaps in a more fun way, but still, small misses get so killed up there it remained a pretty dumb play to try for the green from too far away.  

I think the hole would be perfect in no wind at all.  But what are the chances of that?

BTW, I am not saying it's a BAD golf hole - it obviously has a lot going on.  It's just kind of awkward.  And I remain very confused about why they didn't make the very simple fix that would seem to remove all issues and turn it into a great golf hole....

TH

Funny thing is, all they'd need to do to fix this is remove the funneling features left of the green.

Huck, aren't you essentially advocating containment?

This is one of my least favorites as well but I saw seven very good players play this par five hole at 466 yards and I don't recall many (any?) birdies made.  The hole acknolwedges one ball striking fundamental - the better right-handed player will likely miss left on a severely uphill mid-to-long iron shot.

Mike

Bill McBride (and anyone else)

First off remember I sang the praises of We-Ko-Pa bringing the "new style C & C" to the masses".

Kapalua is a great example of a variety (other than frilly bunkers) we don't see enough from the local deity.  There is to me too much similarity in concept and execution, style if you will in most of the recent stuff. They haven't done anything even remotely like Kap for a while.

Great architects with lots of variety:

Tillie - almost no two alike
Ross - not so much a definable style - that's why we argue about his bunkering, greensites, etc. and some of the restorations feeling "sterile"
Macdonald et.alia - "template holes" but each course has a difference in the interpretations of the concept, combinations of the principles and to a more novice interested in architecture - challenge in rooting out some of the templates and concepts.
Mackenzie - tackled vastly different properties but had "trademark bunkering" more than most.

Who is the most homogeneous of the "great old dead guys?

Perhaps Flynn (believe me no one knows that better than me). Never built a stinker, rarely even a suspect hole.  But almost instantly recognizable.

C & C by limiting to just two hand built low-lying properties/golf courses yearly are they limiting themselves?  Are they challenging themselves enough?

Don't get me wrong, they are among the best, but for example every time I see something new from Kelly Blake Moran I always see really different things, different concepts - whereas I don't see surprizes from  (especially here where there is such reverential treatment - and very little criticism) C & C. I just hear "I want one iin my backyard.  And public!

Rees Jones and RTJ, Sr. as well as Fazio get knocked for similarities in approach and appearance yet are beloved - except here - no worries.  I respect their work and C & C's, but other modern architects are more varied - Moran, Doak, Hanse - just to name a few.  Some take more chances than the others.

I am sometimes reminded of my old friend in Colorado's take on Sand Hills in calling it "The most boring course I ever played - all the holes look the same".

In some ways Mike has been proven right more than not.

Perhaps I'm just hoping for a little breakout one of these days.  Like I said, call me a heretic, but it is my opinion - which also contains great respect for the work even if it's not my favorite. I'm definitely more into quirk then they seem willing to do and they are even more instantly recognizable than our beloved Flynn.

hey Tom,

How did 16 at PD play into that southernly wind?  I guess on the approach you had to make sure you had enough club or certain doom was inevitable?

On a side note..I for one think it is awesome that all 3 courses play so different based on the winds of the day/time of the year.  Especially at PD where almost every hole runs north or south.  It does make a strong case to visit the resort in both the summer and winter months for the opposing prevailing winds.

Kalen:

The hole was a beast into the summer south wind... man the idea was to bash it far enough up the hill to have a decent third... and then the third was always very tough.  The cool thing is back where you'd leave the second - say anywhere from 160-120 in - it's wide enough such that you felt you had a chance.  Then if and when you missed the green, well... you felt like it was your own fault.  I liked the hole a lot in the summer wind.   But others hate it in both winds....

And hell yes, I was freaking out all weekend about how different the holes played from what I remembered.  #4PD I played once as driver+putter from the 449 tees... this past weekend it was never less than driver+3wood or 2iron, from shorter tees.  I'd say that's a rather large difference, wouldn't you?

For sure Tom,

Number 4 at PD plays massively different, just like #13 which when I played it in the summer winds was a Driver/3w into that green and I still came up short.

As for hole #16, I can't think of a preferred wind to play it in.  Either way its the most devilish short par 4 I've ever played.  On a side note, Tom did admit in "The Making of Bandon" that it is borderline unfair when you are in the massive swale short of the green.  

Kalen:

Yep, 13 PD is another that was massively different.  It was fun in a ego-building way being able to confidently hit a bombing drive followed by a short iron into that green, but on the other hand, in the summer wind it is always rather heroic trying to survive on the tee shot and miss the dune right on the second.  What's cool is going in opposite directions as they do, you're always gonna have one hole that can be a hero-maker, and one hole an ego-builder.

And I am VERY with you re 6 - although I do think it's a bit easier in summer wind.  Against the wind one has a chance of holding that green, even from down in the hollow on the left.  With wind behind, might as well go sideways.   And hell yes it's "unfair", but you also have gained a chance to reach where you can PUTT a second shot with the wind behind, so it's your own damn fault for hitting it left.  I had one instance of each last weekend...  In any case it remains one hell of a hole... contending for my fave at the resort still.  But I am leaning toward 14 BT.  As much as others hate that hole, man I love it.

TH