[Peter Pallotta]

JES II

Thanks. I like to think of myself as a kind of anti-facilitator, interuppting at inopportune moments the flow of questions and answers. I never thought I'd say something like that....hmmm

Peter

[JESII]

We're the Yin and the Yang you and me, like Ebony and Ivory...

[JESII]

Now that I'm on this thread a few times, I guess I have to ask...Donnie, is it LAZER or LASER out on your island?

[D_Malley]

we recently had some new tees built on our 1926 course.  i asked the GCA if he would use some sort of leveling device, and he said he prefers to shape the tee and then wait several days and look at it after some rain.  he also said that the entire tee does not have to be level.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
I think Joe did a nice job of answering your question.  Thanks Joe  

I brought up Flynn because he was very particular about getting the grades on his greens just as he wanted them.  He probably would have found the tool very useful.  

[Mark_Fine]

Racetrack George,
You should let a tee settle and many contractors will just eyeball and/or stake the grade to start.  But afterwards you can and should still use a level.   If for example you are building a large driving range tee and bird baths develop because it is "unlevel" you will quickly see the value of the tool.  It will not prevent this problem, but it does help.

A laser just helps set a grade, it does not necessarily make a surface flat.  

[Joe Hancock]

Mark,

You are most certainly welcome!

Joe

[D_Malley]

mark
i do not think our gca used any kind of level devise, and the tees do look very natural, and in spots slope is noticable.

[D_Malley]

mark
isn't there a difference between laser leveling in gca as oppused to shooting levels/grade with a laser.  i am pretty sure flynn used a level/ transit or some similar devise in those days.  he did not just eyeball everything.

[Mark_Fine]

Racetrack George,
Nice tee!  I like it.  Remember a simple string can help set a grade.  I'm not sure what the contractor used but he did a nice job.  

The technology continues to improve (seems almost daily).  Today you can map greens (some say down to a square inch).  Whether that is really true or practical, I don't know.    

[wsmorrison]

"Mike said the same thing I did - the laser process has nothing to do with being for example "perfectly cornered" as you called it.  You can use a string to make perfect corners if you want.  You don't need a laser.

I would have bet that Flynn would have used laser leveling (were it available) for work especially on his greens as he was very precise with how he wanted them constructed and didn't seem to leave much to chance (or to the whims of his construction supervisors).  Laser leveling would have helped him greatly don't you think?"

What are you talking about, Mark?  You seem particularly dense about my posts and seeing things that aren't there.  Can't you understand that I do not like the look of perfectly straight and perfectly level (OK with an imperceptible 1 degree or so for drainage) tees.  Lasers may be used in a way that tends to make things look too modern and too man-made looking.  If this is the case on a classic course where the  original greens look crafted rather than drafted, the disconnect is not appealing.  What don't you understand about that?  


When tees are made laser level, other attributes of the tees tend to follow suit.  I'm not an idiot, I know lasers levels aren't used to create perfect corners, I never said that.  You act like you're an expert and are teaching a class of elementary students on career day.  Now, try to understand, it is the too perfect look that I am put off by and the laser is a part (not the entirety) of the process.

You think Flynn would use a laser in green design and construction?   I'd say he did pretty well without one.  Who does that today?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
You get defensive pretty quickly    Have a look at the tee that Racetrack George posted.  Do you like it?  Is it too perfect?  Also, help me to understand what would be different about it (or less to your liking) if it were "laser leveled"?  

[ForkaB]

Of course, Donnie.

One of the goofiest things I saw last year (and for the 3rd or 4th time) was the 10th(?) tee at SFGC--effectively an unkempt early MacKenzie green.  Tom Doak tried to coinvince me that it was cool, but I wasn't buying it.

Lazer Level at will--tees need some respect.

Rich

[Brian Phillips]

Wayne...

All that Mark is implying is that you can achieve the exact same type of tee with a laser as in that picture.  The shaping or blending out around the tee will still be done by eye.

I have shot nearly every tee that I have ever built.  We do not use box blades with a laser attached in our company.  

Can someone on here who is so against lasers show me an example of wh y not to use them?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

This has to be one of the most bizarre series of posts ever.

I agree with Mike, Brian, Mark, Joe and others that the level is a most valuable tool that has been used since the beginning of time and that it's all in the hands, knowledge and talent of the guy using it, as well as building the tees AND GREENS where it is employed. The laser level--even more valuable given the ability to properly grade and drain.

Did some of you against the laser level know that every architect and construction guy in the business has uses them exclusively? ALL OF THEM, ALL OF THE TIME? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there have been some that have built tees on site and I'm sure they have come out all right, but to have a nice constructed teeing ground, one of the finer aspects of taking pride in one's work. This is where the knowledge AND taste of building a tee that suits the given situation works to it's fullest.

After all, the level isn't the machine that is building the tee itself as many of you seem to be thinking.

With that, how many tees have you built Ed Getka where you didn't need the use a level?

Do some of you think Seth Raynor actually built all of those land forms without the use of a level of some kind? Granted he didn't have a laser level, but the laser only speeds up the process and is more accurate as well as efficient.

Don't fool yourselves! I know this from using a level everyday, in fact, I better get going and use one now! (meaning get back to work!)

Donnie, May all your tees be level and true and I'll see you in two weeks!

[JESII]

WAYNO! PAGING WAYNE MORRISON! PLEASE COME TO THE RED COURTESSY PHONE...

[wsmorrison]

Oops.  Unnecessary Roughness penalty--15 yards.  Sorry about that, Mark.

I deserved the penalty flag, Brian and Jim.

[Mike_Young]

From the last couple of post I think there is some confusion.
Laser level is not a transit or level.....
Laser level is a term used for a blade attached to a small tractor or dozer that can plane a surface FLAT.  It works by reading a laser beam set ona tripod to the side of the area to be planed.  the operator of the machine can adjust it to put a  single plane slope on the area at will ( most cases 1 or 2 percent).....it only works on the top of the tee....If for some reason a crowned tee is wanted that can be done... Personally I don't see how it could work on greens unless you wanted a sloped single plane green....
the tee surrounds are not affected at all by the laser level.
We are not speaking of a transit level for reading elevations
check this link    www.usga.org/turf/articles/construction/tees/tee_construction.html

....sorry if I am off base.....

[Mike Nuzzo]

Frankly I don't like that tee Racetrack posted...
especially since you have to walk through a puddle to get to it...

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Someone else posted me offline and explained the device exactly as you have.  Thanks for the clarification.  We might as well all be talking about the same thing.  So we can assume Flynn wouldn't have used it to build greens, right  

[JESII]

For we ignorant ones...a laser transit is different than a laser level...correct? Some of us know, and some of us think they know and some of us know we don't know...do you know which you are?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Wayne, I too was  contacted, which I knew of, but didn't think it was being used in this example--but I'm sure Ed knew it was thus his response.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sully, I'll claim ignorance in that I didn't even read fully Mark & Wayne's posts, but was completely perplexed by Ed's ascertation.

[JESII]

Sully, I'll claim ignorance in that I didn't even read fully Mark & Wayne's posts, but was completely perplexed by Ed's ascertation.

And some just don't want to know...

[Donnie Beck]

Whew.... that was quite the response... The reason I asked is I recently attended a seminar and an architect most of you know was giving a speech about master plans and preserving the integrity of classic courses.. In the same speech about preserving great architecture the topic of lengthening for the modern game came up.. His associate chimes in that they would not build a new tee without laser leveling it and went on to show a series of slides which in my opinion did not fit the character of the rest of the course. This got me thinking how they could possibility not see that they looked horrible.. Anyway I like the quirk and character of pushed up tees... I don't want to stand on the side of a hill to hit the ball, but I like the option of looking for a slight downward lie for a fade or slight uphill lie for a draw.

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