[Jim Sweeney]

Bill McB:

No, Camargo 16 is not similar. Wish I had a picture. Maybe someone else does.

JIm

[Matthew Hunt]

The 11th at RCD used to be callled the "Alps" but a the green complex has been changed twice since.

[Anthony Butler]

I can't really picture an Alps hole having a downhill second shot even if there is enough mounding to hide the front of the green.

The question I have is: Should the pin always be visible from the preferred location on the fairway on an Alps Hole? At what point does it just become a blind second to a punchbowl green or the like?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Anthony

Alps-Punchbowl #4 at Fishers Island - a great golf hole - if you have the guts to hit it to the extreme right side of the fairway you can see the pin in some hole locations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

You are incorrect.

That mound is located behind the green and can be clearly seen in the picture on page 68 in Geoff Shackelford's, "The Golden Age of Golf Design".

In viewing the aerial photo on page 68 you can clearly see that NO mound exists in front of the road and that the LARGE mound is behind the green.

Stop trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony

Alps-Punchbowl #4 at Fishers Island - a great golf hole - if you have the guts to hit it to the extreme right side of the fairway you can see the pin in some hole locations.

That's a cool looking hole and I can't think of a similar one in America. I would hesitate to call it an Alps Hole, even though it appears that the green is SLIGHTLY above the right side of the fairway. It seems as though you could land the ball anywhere up to 15yds short and run it on.

Unfortunately I will most likely never get to test that theory. I know only one person with access to Fishers Island and he's a total jackass, I would hate myself for kissing that ass for a round of golf!

[George_Bahto]

Anthony Butler: This Raynor version of this “style” hole, an Alps, is an Alps to Punchbowl. There are a quite a few of them around and even NGLA has a back-stop berm behind the green.

You might think these version are pretty rare but they really are not.

Sleepy Hollow the present 15th is very similar to the one at Fishers Island but certainly does not have the surrounding drama, but does have the view of the Hudson River in the background.

I think they wanted sort of backstop or “catcher’s mitt”  feature to contain overly aggressive play.

Fishers Island’s is certainly best of breed.

For those who have not played there, what is interesting about the hole, especially if you do not know what is coming, is that you seem to be playing down a normal fairway and when you come to the crest of the hill, you are surprised at the drop to the green.

The tall “marker” pole wasn’t there is a give away.

[CHrisB]

I have a few questions about this particular photo of the hole formerly referred to as an Alps . . .

1.  For those familiar with the course, from which tee is the picture taken?  

2.  I lightened a rectangle in the center photo to highlight a large mound which appears to extend as a smaller mound well to the right and a little to the left.  I am sure that many will undoubtedly claim that this was the mound behind the green, but looking at the photo, I am not so sure.  What do you guys think?   Judging from this photo, was this the highlighted mound across the road, or was it on same side of road as the current green?  

David,

If you look at page 68 of Shackelford's The Golden Age of Golf Design, you'll see that the mound is behind the 10th green. Between Shackelford's photo and the one you posted, you can match the trees behind the mound to see that the mound is the same one in both pictures.

The interesting question to me is what the purpose of that mound was. Given that
(i) there seemed to be no other features that artifical or contrived on the rest of the course,
(ii) the 10th green was in the landing zone for pulled or hooked tee shots of of #1 tee, and
(iii) both pictures seem to indicate a similar (though smaller) mound behind the 11th tee that would presumably serve the same purpose,
my money would be on that mound serving primarily as a buffer between the 1st and 10th holes, so that pulled or hooked shots wouldn't interfere with play on the 10th green, and also so that aerial approaches into the 10th green would be kept from going too long and interfering with play on the 1st.

[Lloyd_Cole]

May I suggest all future flat Alps holes are named 'Dutch Alps'?

[Anthony Butler]

Very Funny, Lloyd. Would these holes have a dyke instead of bunker fronting the green?

I do prefer holes with a backstop or berm when the grass is kept short all the way to the top of the 'hill'. Most greens featuring a backstop in New England, the superintendents have grown the primary cut out so it runs about a foot into the cabbage, leaving you with same tricky pitch from an indifferent lie to a downhill pin. The 1st on the Clyde nine at The Country Club is a prime example of this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

That is what I figured, but it sure doesnt look that way in this photo. Was the long lower mound running to the right part of the backing mound as well?  

David,

That might be the back of the 12th green.
The 12th green rises up considerably from front to back.

Page 69 in Geoff's book shows a picture of the 9th green, with the same mounding in the backround.

Based on the angle of the photo, I'd say the mounding just might be the back of the 12th green, with a bunker cut into it.

I'll leave it to the Merion experts, Wayne and TEPaul to tell me, after looking at pages 68 and 69, if my assumption is correct.

I cannot find Geoff's book anywhere.  Maybe I can talk Lynn into bring his to the course tomorrow.

What year was the first hole rerouted to its current form?  

I think it was 1922.
The picture on page 68 in Geoff's book is from 1924, and both the old and the new 10th green are clearly visible, and, there doesn't appear to be ANY mounding short of the road on # 10.

How about tee? Can you tell which one it is?  Based on my extensive experience on the hole, I cannot.

I couldn't answer that.

Round pegs fit in square holes if the diameter of the peg is less than or equal to the width of the hole.  Or if you have a hammer.  

It would appear that someone should take your hammer away from you.  

[Mike_Cirba]

David's argument that the large, mounded "fence" behind the original 10th green at Merion that was obviously built to protect golfers from balls on the 1st hole is an "ALPS" feature is comical.  

The two Alps holes in existence at that time at Prestwick and NGLA both featured large, hillsides in front of the green that made the approach blind and which needed to be traversed.   Complicating matters was a deep, crossing, trench bunker in front of each green.   Lesley clearly is talking about that trench bunker being an Alps type feature, and not the earth buildup behind the green separating the golfers on the 1st and 10th holes.

Yet, David seem so intent on seeking any smidgeon of evidence, no matter how nonsensical, to advance his EXPANSIONIST, REVISIONIST theories about CB Macdonald's role at Merion that he'd have us believe that protective containment mounding that would make Rees Jones blush was actually a strategic feature that was generously brought to us from the great links courses overseas by Macdonald.

As I mentioned on the other thread, to accept David's hypothesis, one needs to see the world as an Escher drawing, where nothing is as it really appears, and everything is the exact opposite.   Why, an Alps feature doesn't need to be in front of the green, it can be behind it!  

And just because every other redan in the world has a green that slopes front to back, let's just look at it in the Bizarro world vision, and see that even though the 3rd green at Merion runs back to front, it's still a redan!  

Just turn everything on its head and you'll get the piece of the puzzle too!  

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I'm not questioning that Lesley referred to the old 10th at Merion as resembling the Alps hole at Prestwick (not NGLA you'll note) "IN PRINCIPLE", but you'll note that he then goes on to clarify what that principle is by saying "; that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green."

“ The tenth hole has its tee far back in the woods and its green has for background a high hill covered with grass, and resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick;  in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green. ”

He's not saying that the high hill background to the green is the principle of an Alps hole any more than he's saying the tee far back in the woods is the principle of an Alps hole!

He's talking clearly about the fronting cross-bunker on a two shot hole, which both the Alps at Prestwick and Macdonald's copy at NGLA both have.   They also each have a high hill fronting the green, not behind it.

[Norbert P]

 THE Alps hole at Prestwick is the Alps hole.  I think we need a richer lexicon for golf hole nomenclature.  

 Hmmm... a flattish raised green with fronting bunker ... how 'bout "Gibraltar" ?    (Big grin on ugly reared head)

 
 

 

[Mike_Cirba]

THE Alps hole at Prestwick is the Alps hole.  I think we need a richer lexicon for golf hole nomenclature.  

 Hmmm... a flattish raised green with fronting bunker ... how 'bout "Gibraltar" ?    (Big grin on ugly reared head)

Slag,

You've been missed here.   Very good to see you back!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Do any of those commentators you reference state HOW the 10th at Merion is based on the 17th at Prestwick ?

How many of them saw the 17th at Prestwick ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,  the text does not support your intepretation of the Lesley article.  But, no matter, others noted that Merion had a hole based on the alps as well.  

They said it was based on an Alps hole, not me.  

Could you cite them and any specific quotes?

It's interesting that the 1916 Philadelphia Bulletin review of the course describes the 10th as follows;

"Hole 10 - Drive and pitch.  The tee is up in the woods and is elevated.   A long straight drive gives the player an easy pitch over Ardmore Avenue to the green."

Interesting that there's no mention of blindness, or other possible Alpian qualities.

Here is there description of the current third hole, which was supposedly a redan;

"Hole 7 - Iron shot.   The first of the short holes.  There is a big trap right in the face of the green and the player must carry to the green to keep out of trouble."

I'm not sure the "easy pitch" after a long straight drive would be indicative of any Alps holes that I know, nor do I know of any redan anywhere that a full carry to the green is the only option to avoid trouble.

While it's hardly stellar architectural analysis, the writer does try to describe the playing qualities of each hole and for the majority of holes described, points out any obvious features.

For instance, the following describes today's 5th hole;

Hole 6 - Drive and Iron.  The brook is in front of the tee and then parallels the hole to the green.  The green is sloping and there are traps to prevent the player from playing to the right and dropping on the green.

Or hole 9;

Hole 9 - Iron shot.   The tee is well above the green which is guarded by a pond, a brook, and traps.  There is no fairway from tee to green.

Hole 16 - The first of the Quarry holes (showing that even that early, the hole 16,17,18 were "named", and the writer used the name - my comment).  A long drive gives the player a full iron to the green with the quarry intervening.

The old 11th;

Hole 11 - Drive and run up.  The drive is over Ardmore Avenue and this hole parallels the 10th and 12th.  The green is well below the fairway and two big traps guard either side of the fairway.

The old 12th;

Hole 12 - Drive and iron.  The drive is uphill and the perfect drive opens the green to the player.   Ardmore Avenue is again crossed and between it and the green are the brook and pampas grass.

The old 13th;

Hole 13 - Pitch.   The green is surrounded by the brook on  three sides and by traps on the right.

The 17th;

Hole 17 - Full iron shot.   Seventy yards below the tee is the bottom of the quarry.  It is a full carry from tee to green.

Finally, 18;

Hole 18 - Drive and iron.   There is a carry of 170 yards from the tee to the fairway and a large pit guards the green located near the clubhouse.

I could go on, but each description is virtually the same in that it speaks about the playing characteristics and then describes the obvious features.

It just seems curious why he wouldn't have mentioned the blindness of the 10th, or any particular features.  

     

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

This thread by definition is about Alps holes that bear little or almost no characteristics to the original at Prestwick yet are still called "Alps" holes.

I think the old 10th at Merion is eminently qualified for that discussion!  

In a way, it's very similar to the flat Raynor examples where there might be some blindness due to the raised wall of the front bunker, but no real hillside or large protrusions in front of the greeen like the original at Prestwick and it's first cousin at NGLA.   Now, the land at Merion does go uphill for about 200 yards, but then levels off, so the comparison is quite applicable.

In terms of Lesley and Tillinghast, my point to you wasn't that these men didn't say the hole had Alps "principles", but what Lesley seems to be clearly saying those principle are is "a two shot hole with the green guarded by a crossing bunker" or some such thing.  

Tillinghast had been to Prestwick and played the original, and I'm sure he also played the one at NGLA.   There is no way in heaven he would ever have mistaken the old 10th at Merion for either of those holes, yet I also believe you when you say Tillinghast, like Lesley, may have said that the hole was inspired by the one at Prestwick, and that's simply because of the crossing bunker feature, and some of the blindness associated with that, similar to Raynor.

Where I was giving you a hard time earlier was your claim that the ReesJones-on-steroids containment mounding BEHIND the old 10th at Merion was indicative of an Alps feature when it obviously was built as a safety feature to be just stretching to find any shred of possible evidence to support your "CB Macdonald Does Merion" theory.

Happily for me, the fact that that feature was applied "backwards", and the fact that the supposed redan greeen at the 3rd also has the defining feature applied backwards allowed me to indulge in some cheap humor about either Wilson being a particularly bad student or Macdonald an abysmal teacher.  

[TEPaul]

"I also find it interesting that when Merion was forced to modify the hole because of the road crossing, it looks as if they turned to another Macdonald concept hole for inspiration.  The hole, as it now stands seems to me a mirror image of the original "Cape" hole at NGLA, except that instead of being a true "cape," with the green jutting out into water, the green instead juts out into bunkers.  The playing principles, however, remain the same.    

Unlike the alps, the "Cape hole" was an original Macdonald creation, at least according to George Bahto's excellent book on C.B. Macdonald, called [und]The Evangelist of Golf[/und]"

David Moriarty:

Some of your theories and opinions really are something but I guess they're understandable since you don't know much about this area. The present 10th was definitely not inspired by CBM's Cape hole.

The present 10th at Merion is about as close as a hole at Merion can get to the 12th at PVGC. And that of course would be completely understandable given Merion and the Wilsons' close connection to PVGC. Matter of fact in the 1919-1920 timeframe Hugh Wilson was PVGC's green chairman and his brother Alan had an even longer and closer relationship with PVGC than Hugh did. Most believe that Merion and the Wilsons lent Flynn to PVGC for a period of time to finish holes #12-15 at PVGC which were unopened and unfinished at the time of Crump's death.

However, there was a real "Cape" hole iteration at PVGC that was never built. It would've been the 14th and looking at the outline of it on paper and where it would've gone, I have got to say it could've been one of the truly great and unique holes in the world of golf. But alas, it probably just didn't fit with what had to come next in the routing.

[TEPaul]

I thought I might just throw this completely OT bit of trivia in here for the hell of it.

The ultra cool 6th green at The Creek was a template copy of the 14th green at Mountain Lake. And that was according to a quote from Raynor.

[Bryan Izatt]

Look Mike, we've been through this again and again.  Like it or not, those who where there thought the 10th presented characteristics of the Alps hole.  Lesley said so, and he was definitely in a position to know.  Same goes for Tillinghast who noted that holes at Merion "present the characteristics of the famous Redan and the Alps of Prestwick."  Others said so as well,    

Here are the "principles" of an Alps hole quoting from CBM & HJW in 1914:

Principle 1.  "the second shot at the Alps is blind from every point of view"

Principle 2.  "Not only is the putting green invisible"

Principle 3.  "the very difficult cross bunker in front of the green is equally hidden from view"

Principle 4.  "the player hits his second shot across the summit of the saddle back hill called the Alps"

Principle 5.  "The green lies in a hollow with the bunker in front and a high bank behind"

Principle 6.  "the second shot ..... player must make a high shot with a long carry and very little run"

There are more principles that deal with fairway bunkering and mounds, but I think most would agree that the six principles above would define an Alps hole.

Now, this is from 1914.  Why would other writers of the age  such as Lesley and Tillie refer to the 10th at Merion as an Alps hole?  They were certainly in a position to know these principles.  Which of these 6 principles did it feature.  From the evidence, it appears part of Principle 3 (very difficult cross bunker in front of the green) and part of Principle 5 (a high bank behind).  Or was it because it was fashionable to praise holes at that time by referring to them in the context of the best holes in the rest of the world - even when they fell seriously short of exhibiting the principles that were known at the time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Or was it because it was fashionable to praise holes at that time by referring to them in the context of the best holes in the rest of the world - even when they fell seriously short of exhibiting the principles that were known at the time.

Bryan,

I think that's absolutely the case.   Consider that Macdonald had just brought the whole idea of templates or attempted replicas of great holes overseas to these shores.

He wrote extensive articles about these "hole types" in national golfing publications and I'm sure it was all the rage to say that a hole on your course was inspired by one of these great holes overseas, whether it made a whole lot of logical sense by sticking to the fundamentals or not.

Thus you have the "redan" 3rd at Merion where the green inexplicably runs back to front and exhibits absolutely none of the playability characteristics of any redan built by Macdonald/Raynor, much less the original, and you have the "alps" 10th at Merion where no large saddleback hill needs to be traversed, and you have all the Raynor examples on flatland that are Alps holes mostly in name alone.

I believe that every one of them does have the large crossbunker in front, though, which is what I believe Lesley was referring to when he said the old 10th hole at Merion was inspired by the principles of the Alps at Prestwick.  

[Bryan Izatt]

I believe that every one of them does have the large crossbunker in front, though, which is what I believe Lesley was referring to when he said the old 10th hole at Merion was inspired by the principles of the Alps at Prestwick.  

I agree that that feature is what Lesley's comment is likely based on.  There doesn't seem to be too many of the other principles exhibited, so logically it must be the bunker.  (I suppose the same could be said for Merion's "Redan").  Seems like scant reason to me.  

Which is why I prefer to think that the hole design wasn't necessarily inspired by the Alps hole.  Is there any evidence that Wilson said he was inspired by the Alps hole - or is it just third parties calling it an Alps or Alps-inspired hole.  If it's just third parties, then I would question their motives for saying so in the face of clearly contradictory evidence.  Seems to me it was just otherwise knowledgeable people trying to be fashionable or au courant.

It's not like people writing in magazines,  even today, don't gild the lily or mis-state things they should know better about.  Sort of like someone reading a current magazine 100 years from now, and saying: gee that's interesting, there was a heathland course in  Myrtle beach in the 1990's.  Just because it's written by a knowledgeable person now, and printed for posterity, doesn't mean it is a heathland course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Do any of those commentators you reference state HOW the 10th at Merion is based on the 17th at Prestwick ?

How many of them saw the 17th at Prestwick ?

Had Lesley EVER been to the UK and Prestwick, in particular, prior to 1912 ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan Izzat:(that would be one z and two t's, David)

You put “principles” in quotes but that is not Macdonald’s word, it is yours, or mine or someone else’s.   The reason I think this is important is that your description focuses the actual physical attributes of the specific Alps, and not the principles underlying the greatness of the concept.  Definitely there is some overlap, your list doesn’t really get to the essence of the hole .  

David,

.....and, you accuse me of definitional hair-splitting!    OK, Macdonald didn't start by saying these things are my "principles" for an Alps.  The list is not my list it's MacDonald's list.  Let's call them "features" of an Alps hole as described by MacDonald.  I'd argue that the features define the hole.  The features define the kind of shots required.  The essence of the hole.  

For example in Principle 4,  you quote  “the player hits his second shot across the summit of the saddle back hill called the Alps.”  This is not a statement of  underlying principle, but rather a physical description of the Alps at Prestwick!  The difference can be seen when we look at the words surrounding the quote.

Perhaps that is why the hole is so fascinating. When the player hits his second shot across the summit of the saddle back hill called the Alps he is completely in doubt about the result.  His ball may be on the green close to the hole, or it may have fallen just short of the green into a serious hazard, or it may have run over the green into thick bent leaving a difficult down-hill approach. The margin between the three results is so small that the player is frequently pleasantly or unpleasantly disappointed when he comes to the top of the hill and surveys the result beneath him. The green lies in a hollow with the bunker in front and a high bank behind. If the ball carries far enough to get over the bunker by only a foot it gets a running fall and may go right past the hole into the bent beyond. Therefore the difference between being in the bunker short of the green or in the bent beyond the green is often the difference of two or three feet in the carry.  And so the hole is so blind that it is calculated to produce the acme of uncertainty and anxiety in the heart of the player.  But there is also another reason why the second shot at the Alps is such a good one, and that is because to make sure of getting on to the green and staying there the player must make a high shot with a long carry and very little run which is perhaps the most golfer-like stroke in the game.

So I would say that, according to Macdonald, an Alps hole would be one which required a long drive and a high, long shot to a blind green with blind hazards in front, and the possibility of a severe downhill lie (or other such trouble?) in back, and a tiny margin for error between trouble short, trouble long and perfect.  The intended consequence is to make the golfer is uncertain and anxious until he finally gets to the green.  

I think you're trying a little too hard here to debate what defines a principle.  You've mixed features (blind green), shot values (a long drive), and the emotional impact on the golfer (anxious).  Is that a better definition of what constitutes the principles of an Alps?  I think the features are more than adequate.  The shot values result from the features as do the emotional impacts.  BTW I think you added another feature to the list - a shallow green, so the margin of error is small between being in trouble short, or long.

We can debate whether Merion’s Alps achieved Macdonald’s underlying, but what is less arguable is that this was supposed to be an Alps.

 Not much to debate, I think.  It didn't have the features, and therefore didn't require the shot values or have the same emotional impact.

Here is the section of the Lesley quote about the hole:

I've highlighted for you in red the features and resultant shot requirements that Lesley mentions.  They don't match up well with Macdonalds feature list or even shot requirements

The tenth hole has its tee far back in the woods and its green has for background a high hill covered with grass, and resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick; in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the greenNot a "difficult" bunker, or a "hidden" bunker, just any old bunker.. A long drive and a good second are required. Lesley could be talking about a requirement of any longish par 4 with any kind of hazards or bunkers.  There's nothing to relate this in any way to the principles of an Alps hole. The second must carry Ardmore Avenue Maybe Ardmore Ave is standing in for the "summit of the saddle back hill". and a number of deep bunkers. Funny, the pictures of the time show only a single bunker in front. If the ball overruns the green it finds lodgment up on the slope of the mountain which is at the rear. A little literary license by Lesley here - a 6 foot high "mountain"?.

And from the NYTimes preview, by someone who obviously Why is this obvious? was very familiar with the course:

From an elevated clearing the drive is across a valley . . . with a long, high pitch shot to the green across the road.  The green is 385 yards from the tee and is completely surrounded by breastworks and trenches, Which nobody else has ever been able to explain or demonstrate in photographs. so that the result of the tee shot is always in doubt until the golfer scales the last rampart and glares or smiles at what his hands have done.

For other references, see the other thread.

Taking jthese two sources at their word, the hole required a long drive and a long, high pitch to a green completely surrounded by trouble, and enough blindness to mask the result the golfer “scales the last rampart.”

Lesley doesn't mention "long and high" for the second shot; or blindness; or masking; or ramparts. Just Mr NYT does that.  Were they looking at the same hole?

As for your theory that these guys used these terms loosely, I know that Tillinghast used the term differently once (a  carry over alpinization off the tee—you posted a pic.)  But I am not aware of any other misuses? [color=blueThere are other cases of loose use just with regard to Merion.[/color]  These guys published volumes so surely there must be a record of their misuse of the terms?. . . on what basis do you conclude that Merion was just another example of them using the term incorrectly?  What is your evidence?

I don't recall saying it "was just another example".  The demonstrable evidence is that Lesley represented it as an Alps hole even though it didn't measure up to the principles or features of an Alps hole as described at that time by CBM.  Give it up, David, the hole does not show an Alps-inspiration as we understand the term today; and, it doesn't do it as the term was understood then either.  The only logical conclusion - Lesley mis-stated it, or mis-represented it, or gilded the lily, or was being fashionable.  You can pick whatever term you like, but that's the jist of it.

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