Phil:

Guess what partner -- maybe the newer courses are indeed better than the ones you mentioned. Many states have gone through an accelerated process in recent times as the name designers (e.g. Nicklaus, Doak, C&C, Fazio, et al) enter a given area and begin to enter their various projects into the area. You can see such a situation in various places throughout the USA.

Truth be told -- I am glad that many people really understand and appreciate what Lawsonia / Links offers.

Phil, I've played Lake Arrowhead's older 18 a number of years ago when I also played Milwaukee CC and Sentry World on a visit some time ago.

The progression of newer courses is a very tricky process. Part of the issue is that "newness" often is overrated by some because of the "new boy on the block syndrome." At the same time -- some of the older public tracks are frankly not very good and have remained "favorites" of certain old time folks. This happens in plenty of situations.

Candidly, there is no perfect process because when you merge different people you will get some compromised outcome. All one can do is try to give greater weight to those who see and play the courses on a steady basis more bang for the results they provide -- while at the same time calculating the input of those who stop by and play from time to time.

Phil -- I gain a good bit of info when people mention courses that are not on the listing because there have been time when I have been greatly impressed about what they offer.

Steve:

Frankly, the quality of public golf in Pennsy is really more the issue -- but that's something I have said for quite some time. If the ratings for the Keystone State are to be taken seriously more change is needed and no doubt IMHO, Lederach will need to be included when they are updated.

For Olde Stonewall to be rated #1 is frankly one of the best jokes I have heard in some time. Give me a round at Birdsfoot which is northeast of Pittsburgh anytime over that. Ditto the qualities of Quick Silver in Midway.

Here's my current home state of Oklahoma..

 Oklahoma
1. Karsten Creek GC, Stillwater (No. 34 m)
2. Chickasaw Pointe, Kingston (m)
3. University of Oklahoma GC, Norman (c)
4. Forest Ridge GC, Broken Arrow (m)
5. Bailey Ranch, Afton (m)

Only complaint is that in the ordering.. number 3 moves to number 5 and the others move up. Honestly after Karsten there's really not much public golf worth seeking out here in Oklahoma.  

My former home state of Washington..

 Washington
1. Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton (m)
2. Trophy Lake Golf & Casting, Port Orchard (m)
3. Semiahmoo, Blaine (m)
4. Port Ludlow Resort (Tide/Timber), Port Ludlow (m)
5. Desert Canyon, Oreland (m)

No way is Port Ludlow a better course than Desert Canyon.. shouldn't be in the top 10.  I'd probably have Desert Canyon as #3.  After that its all pretty much the same, nothing worth traveling a long ways for. Maybe the new course in Tacoma will change that.  

Public golf in Washington overall is better than Oklahoma but it will cost you a lot more and Karsten is way better than anything WA has to offer.

Matt

I haven't been to Western PA in a long time and haven't played Birdsfoot, Midway or Mystic Rock, but I remember playing Deer Run in Gibsonia which I thought was far better than Ravens Claw. It's now listed as semi-private. www.deerrungolfclub.com
The newish Wrendale(Hurdzan/Fry) near Hershey is also semi private and, from what I hear, should be a top 10 candidate as well.

Steve

Here's my home state:

Michigan
1. Arcadia Bluffs, Arcadia (No. 22 m)
2. Greywalls, Marquette (m)*
3. Forest Dunes, Roscommon (m)*
4. Tullymore, Stanwood (m)
5. Black Forest at Wildnerness Valley, Gaylord (m)
6. Bay Harbor (Links/Quarry), Harbor Springs (m)
7. Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda (m)
8. Treetops North (Smith), Gaylord (m)
9. Black Lake, Onaway (m)
10. High Pointe, Traverse City (m)
11. Belvedere, Charlevoix (c)
12. High Pointe, Traverse City (m)
13. Boyne Highlands (Heather), Harbor Springs (m)
14. Treetops North (Fazio), Gaylord (m)
15. Orchards, Washington (m)

Rather than list what I've played, the only I haven't are #8, #11 and #14.  List is pretty decent.

They are missing Eagle Eye (probably because it is relatively new), which should be #3 or #4 and Angel's Crossing (probably also too new) which I think should be around #6-#10.  They're missing Red Hawk and Shephard's Hollow which both should be somewhere between #6-#10, just behind Lakewood Shores.  Black Forest is a little high, I wouldn't put it any higher than #10.  Pilgrim's Run and Yarrow Golf & Conference Center I'd have in my top #15 toward the bottom but there's probably 30-40 courses that could all be lumped in the #12-#15 range for the state depending on different taste.  Overall, a pretty decent list with a few ommissions, that is all.

-Brian

The lists for the states where I have enough experience to have some idea (MN, IA, AZ, WI) look pretty accurate to me and far more accurate than other lists I have seen.

Here's my home state:

 Illinois
1. Cog Hill (No.4-Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)
3. Kokopelli, Marion (m)*
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)
6. TPC at Deere Run, East Moline (m)*
7. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)
8. Kemper Lakes, Long Grove (m)
9. Cantigny, Wheaton (m)
10. Glen Club, Glenview (m)

I haven't played all of them, but the list looks pretty inclusive and pretty accurate, based on what I've played and what I've heard.  What this list points out is what has been bandied about on other threads; namely, that Illinois has a plethora of great privates but a paucity of superb publics.  (Just wanted to use plethora and paucity in the same sentence, thank you very much!)

IMO Ohio's list is garbage:

Ohio

1. Longaberger, Nashport
2. Shaker Run, Lebanon
3. Boulder Creek, Streetsboro
4. Avalon G&CC (Avalon/Lakes), Warren
5. Hickory Hills, Grove
6. Aston, North Bend
7. Stonewater, Cleveland
8. Rattlesnake Ridge, Sundbury
9. Elk's Run, Batavia
10. Cooke's Creek, Columbus

Longaberger at 1, Shaker Run at 2, Boulder Creek at 3, Aston Oaks (you have got to be kidding me) at 6, Rattlesnake Ridge is private and has been for 2 or 3 years and even if it was public is not in the top 10, Elk's Run at 9 and Cooke's Creek and 10 should not be on the list.

Some in Ohio that could/should (note all are public access at some time - some semi-private):

Sleepy Hollow GC Great Stanley Thompson course in Cleveland

The GC at Stonelick Hills is the best course in Batavia Ohio and a heck of a lot better than Elks Run by Norman

Blue Heron GC (Lakes/Highlands) John Robinson course in Medina that just make Golf Digest's Best New in 2006.

Elks CC under the radar Ross in Portsmouth, OH

Little Mountain CC Concord, OH I put this Hurdzan and Fry above Stonewater

Blackmoor GC Wintersville, OH (terrific John Robinson course on an extremly undulating site)

Castle Shannon GC wild course on some wild terrain with bold greens and at one time bolder bunkering (many have been grassed in)

Salt Fork State Park GC very fun Kidwell in Salt Fork State Park

Oak Shadows GC unknown John Robinson course in New Philadephia, OH

Auman Timbers GC for shear wow factor on 10 holes - Wild Robinson course in Dover, OH that just opened full 18 - conditions can be a problem, but course is a blast.

Crystal Springs GC Hopewell, OH would probably not make the top ten, but is better than several on Golfweek's list

Granville GC Ross in Granville, OH

Note to Glenn / Doug, I do not have any Art Hills courses on the list and for good reason with all the other quality courses that are availible in the State.

Chris,

Those are some nice additions to Ohio. I agree 100% with your call on Elks and Granville. Although, it has been a LONG time since I played Granville. Elks is pretty good. I played the Ohio Mid-Amateur there. I really liked it, the course gave up some LOW scores, but it was a blast to play. Some fabulous holes out there. I really liked 1,2,3,10 and 16. Elks Run and Stonelick is interesting. Elks Run has its faults for sure, but I am not completely sold on Stonelick just yet. 9 and 18 are serious problems on that golf course to me. Outside of that, it is pretty good. 4? The first par 5 is not a very good hole either. Actually, the par 5's are the only problem that I have with the place, even though I like 10 and 14? I think it is. 16 is a great short hole and 5 is a great long one. 7 and 8 are solid. 11 is another good shorty.


Andy,

You know the Indiana list better than me, but doesn't one have to be at least mildly insane to put Purgatory ahead of the Trophy Club?

Quote from: Terry Lavin on January 03, 2007, 02:55:01 PM

Here's my home state:

 Illinois

Terry --

I was in your home state last week, and was wandering around Fort Sheridan.

There seemed to be a plethora of open ground, awaiting a golf course -- and a paucity of evidence that a golf course will result.

Do you know what 's up there?

Dan

Mike Keiser owns the Glen Club, a very difficult (from the back tees) and not very scenic Tom Fazio design that was built in that area.  Thunderhawk and Pine Meadow are in the general area as well.

"Generally, many of these same folks follow the "herd" mentality -- that means they simply go with the standard list of courses and simply reinforce their position over and over again with more rounds. The process of change through such actions is really quite s-l-o-w."

Phil:

Guess what partner -- maybe the newer courses are indeed better than the ones you mentioned. Many states have gone through an accelerated process in recent times as the name designers (e.g. Nicklaus, Doak, C&C, Fazio, et al) enter a given area and begin to enter their various projects into the area. You can see such a situation in various places throughout the USA.

Truth be told -- I am glad that many people really understand and appreciate what Lawsonia / Links offers.

Phil, I've played Lake Arrowhead's older 18 a number of years ago when I also played Milwaukee CC and Sentry World on a visit some time ago.

The progression of newer courses is a very tricky process. Part of the issue is that "newness" often is overrated by some because of the "new boy on the block syndrome." At the same time -- some of the older public tracks are frankly not very good and have remained "favorites" of certain old time folks. This happens in plenty of situations.

Candidly, there is no perfect process because when you merge different people you will get some compromised outcome. All one can do is try to give greater weight to those who see and play the courses on a steady basis more bang for the results they provide -- while at the same time calculating the input of those who stop by and play from time to time.

Phil -- I gain a good bit of info when people mention courses that are not on the listing because there have been time when I have been greatly impressed about what they offer.

Matt:

I think we're generally on the same page; I took from the quote from your first post that you thought some rankings were tied to what rankers know and admire, and that some were unwilling to consider "new" courses as competing favorably with the old standbys.

There's little doubt the standard of public (although on the expensive end of things) golf in Wisconsin has been raised in the past decade or so -- not just the Kohler-area quartet, but Lehman's Troy Burne, Dye's course near Hayward, and the Bull by Nicklaus. All have very good reputations in the state, and pushed aside courses from previous lists that are probably not in their league anymore.

I do think URidge gets over-rated because of its relative newness, its ties to dear ole' UW, and the RTJ JR. connection. It's good, but not top-10 good; there are a bunch of other publics within an easy drive of Madison that I'd rather play (and walk -- a key consideration for me).

Quote from: Dan Kelly on January 03, 2007, 03:01:04 PM

Quote from: Terry Lavin on January 03, 2007, 02:55:01 PM

Here's my home state:

 Illinois

Terry --

I was in your home state last week, and was wandering around Fort Sheridan.

There seemed to be a plethora of open ground, awaiting a golf course -- and a paucity of evidence that a golf course will result.

Do you know what 's up there?

Dan

Mike Keiser owns the Glen Club, a very difficult (from the back tees) and not very scenic Tom Fazio design that was built in that area.  Thunderhawk and Pine Meadow are in the general area as well.

There's supposed to be course in the offing for Fort Sheridan. I just wondered if you (or anyone) knows where the project stands.

"You also have a very short season in most parts of New York and the efforts to overcome that don't invite much enthusiasm from potential investors."

Matt:

Any shorter than what we have here in Wisconsin, or in Colorado, or the Iron Range of Minnesota, which I think has a golf season of about six weeks?

I've spent a little time in New York and Pennsylvania, and generally agree about the state of public vs. private there. But is it really tied to investor confidence and the shortness of the golf season? I get the general impression -- even Herb Kohler's unique efforts aside -- that Wisconsin has been pretty successful relative to New York in developing some first-rate, high-end golf courses. And there is a heckuva lot more investors -- confident or not -- in New York and PA than in Wisconsin. Couldn't something else be at work here? I don't know the answer -- but some pretty out-of-the-way, short-season places seem to be attracting some pretty good public golf of late.