1st Hole Royal Melbourne West - are good players ever near it, let alone in it?

3rd Hole Royal Melbourne West - as above.

11th Hole Royal Melbourne West - the two there are horrible shapeless pits.  Fill them in and do it properly.

2nd Hole Barnbougle Dunes - as above.  They are shaped better, but still don't look as if they belong.

Shane;

Why is a big hitter like yourself concerned with the fairway bunker on 11 at KH?  It demands that you hit a well-shaped drive over it.  What's wrong with that?

Surely even your 7-wood could get over it?

Mike Cirba - Hi, and Happy New Year!  Yes, those are just two bits of nothing but, expense, on the left side of five on the East!  Thanks!  

Mike, but I must say, if I was on that back tee, way back, looking down the fairway, and wanting to get into the green from there from the left side, it might be a consideration!

I'd imagine a pushed drive on ANGC #10 (into the trees) would necessitate a recovery along the ground for much of it's way, which would have to negociate Dr. Mac's bunker. I imagine some of the older members there would also worry about that trap with their second shots. Just because it's not considered in a manner consistent with original intent, doesn't mean it has to go.

Shane, Tom and Mark,

The inside right drive bunkers on 11 at KH aren't visible from the tee are they? The new Grant bunker therefore asks a more obvious and more stern question; at the expense of subtlety, and usually to the detriment of most members cards it seems. It also from memory played a key role in Allenby losing an Oz Open there to Aaron Baddeley. I like the test it poses, but on reflection, I liked the hole more the way it was before.

I can't agree with you Mark on the changes to Royal Melb.  You may not like their style, but the bunkers all serve a purpose. The traps appear different at various parts of the course not just due to different times of construction or different staff. Their roles are different, therefore their form varies.

The trap right of RMW 1 provides a laser straight line from the tee, to a flat ever so raised plauteau in the fairway (barely discernable otherwise), which allows full visibility of the ground before the green, which is not easily appreciated when drives are played to the left, on a direct line to the flag. (Those mounds B.Walshe abhors do serve a purpose). Yardage books and sprinkler heads make this type of design obsolete at times, but for decades this was a great little pearl valued by observant members.

Similarly, the drive traps on the inside of 11 gently punish the greedy golfer, yet provided a slim chance of recovery. Same as the furthest trap on the inside of 17. They're shallow and not heroic in appearance, because they don't serve the same purpose as those on RMW 2, 4, 5, 6, and so many other holes. They let you get a perfect shot back onto the green. Grand traps on 2,4,6, etc provide aa thrill when clearing them. It must have been a great thrill 50 years ago.

Which traps did you mean on 3? Greenside?

The placement of the traps on the right of 2 at Barnbougle is spot on IMHO. I too thought you only disapproved of their look, not their location.

I'd have thought that a Cashmore course would have been mentioned by now, given his penchant for visual effect first and strategy later. His courses can be over-bunkered too.

Tom - imagine how many people would have bunkered 15 St. Andrews Beach...

Matthew

And I've only seen a very bad player in the bunker about 40 yards short and wide right of the sixth green.

Wow, I find that hard to believe.  My friend finds that one quite frequently.  Downwind.  He tries to cut the corner, hit it waaaay down there and hits a big looping draw which bounces right in.  I don't even fool with the fairway anymore, Tom, I aim between the elbow bunker and the 9th tee because the angle in is so much better from there.  

More like questions, as I haven't played or seen the holes, but based on pictures:

*  The Redan at Somerset has a few bunkers what looks to be about 40 to 50 yards short of the green;

*  CPC number 3 has the same.  

Do these bunkers play any functional role?  

Tom Doak,

Would be interested to here your defense of the pot bunker in the middle of the 17th fairway at St Andrews Beach and why it should not be removed.  

Dave, how far off the tee is that central pot bunker on 17?

David:

I would think the reason for the bunker on #17 is pretty straightforward ... if a player is thinking of reaching that green in two he must negotiate the bunker off the tee to get a good look at the green.  If he's not worried about reaching in two, he can simply hit three-wood, or hit left, although from the left the second shot is more blind.

There are some other bunkers at St. Andrews Beach which are not so much in play, as you suggest ... that first bunker on the left in the first picture is one, though when the rough is short, it tells you not to go down the 18th fairway with the tee shot on 17.  The two bunkers on the right of #12 are meant for the same purpose.  However, our general rule at St. Andrews Beach was that bunkers were much more playable than the native rough, so I didn't mind if Brian Slawnik threw in a few on his own initiative.

Tom,

First, Happy New Year.
Second, thanks for the answer.

I always thought the best feature of the hole, the right of the green, came from not placing a bunker where most might have.

Pandemonium?

Nyk:

Happy New Year.

Pretty much all of the bunkers you named are there for visual purposes ... to add a splash of sand instead of just having all marram grass, which helps make the bunkers that are IN play look more like they belong.  We added blowouts where there hadn't been as many naturally because those areas were originally overgrown with gorse.

As you say, too, anything can happen and I've seen people in about half the ones you named in my 50 rounds on the course.

David:

I would think the reason for the bunker on #17 is pretty straightforward ... if a player is thinking of reaching that green in two he must negotiate the bunker off the tee to get a good look at the green.

Tom,

How did you anticipate the bunker would be negotiated when you designed it?  

The problem I have with it is that it is a central fairway bunker where there is little option to play left or right of it.  Every shot that tries to run by the bunker to the right catches the slope and runs into the bunker.  Balls can even run backwards into it once they lose momentum.  The gap to the left is probably too narrow to be a realistic option.  

So that leaves the options of carrying it or playing short of it. I have not seen someone carry it yet from the back tees (although I have no doubt a long hitting pro could) and the flat ground leading up to the bunker means that plenty of balls run into it.  In my experience it operates as a road block with the general strategy being to play as close up to it as possible without going in to it . There is really no  way around it.  

One of the features I love about the design of StAB is the strategic use of  slopes on the fairway.  THe way the slopes on the 5th, 8th, 13th, 14th and 15th holes dictate strategy is a really cool feature in my opinon.  Compared to the subtle use of the land on these holes, the bunker sitting into the slope on the 17th appears somewhat clumsy in my opinion.  

Would the slope the bunker sits into not be a strategic feature without the bunker?  

To date I have not really seen any evidence in your courses or your writings that you like bunkers that offer only two options (carry or play short).  Is the 17th a case of a hole not playing exactly how it was designed or is it a case of a design feature that you think is good to use in moderation to mix things up?  

David:

We did struggle to build that bunker to achieve what we wanted.  I knew that some balls would try to get past the bunker on the right and then roll back into it, but I hoped others would have enough momentum to get past.

Mike Clayton told me that Geoff Ogilvy drove well past it when they played a year ago, so rest easy, it can be done!


Matt:

Understood.  Building bunkers in the middle of turf at Apache Stronghold was tough ... a lot of the bunkers blend into the washes at the edges, but in the middle we never hit upon a style which looked right.  It was a very wide landing area to start with and it needed something.  And to be honest, they don't see many players who drive it as far as you do, so it does come into play for a lot of people.