Tony - You've got me there.....any clues??

Painswick#1

220 from the front tees and a whopping 224 when you cross the single track road to get to the tips.

At Buda II in over 100+ rounds, none of the 30+ players (including a Walker Cup player) made it near to pin high.

not many drive the 1st @ Painswick Rich. i guess 225 and as uphill as it is must equate to 300 yards, and so the quarry means you effectively need to carry 275... so out of range for 95%. i use to hit a 6 iron and try and hit it a bit left, the vision is a bit better from here and its an 80 yard wedge or something. For a hole of 224 yards par 4 its amazing how often your looking at a six footer left lip to save your 4!

Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 16, 2006, 08:23:09 AM

I love short par 4's, but I had never built one under 300 yards until we started working in Australia, where everything is measured in meters and I paid even less attention to the distances than usual.  As a result we came up with three great par 4's under 300 yards on those two courses ... the 4th and 12th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta).  The fourth at Barnbougle is probably my favorite of the three but I would be happy to include any of them on a course I was building.

I do think there is a strong prejudice for modern designers against building par-4's under 300 yards (350 for some today) or par-5's under 500 yards in today's era of longball.  This despite the fact that some of the best holes in the world fall into the category.

I think the prejudice is less stronger than it was Tom and may even become trendy, if it hasn't already. I think its nice to have a hole where a midhandicapper can clatter a good one occasionally and make the putt for an eagle. As you say they often fall into the best hole category and can sometimes help the routing on some difficult land parcels. There is no doubt that 10 years ago and beyond these holes were rare on the Nicklaus-Palmer-Jones modern designs and there did seem a view against them. A number of TPC courses more recently seem to have a hole in the back nine as a short 4, for TV reasons this has the potential for drama and good viewing, much like a 5 hole. I like the short 4.

I think the reason that you don't see many really short par 4's on Tour is that they don't make great strokeplay holes. When they play European Tour events at the Belfry almost nobody tries to drive the 10th green - it's a boring hole. At the Ryder Cup loads of people went for it and it's a great hole. They're great matchplay holes, and great members holes, but tour players will hit iron in the fairway and trust their wedge game.

Tom - it is interesting of the three short two-shotters you mention down under - only the 4th at Barnbougle felt a driveable proposition. In the case of the 2nd at SAB, maybe it was the fact that you could not (as I recall) see the green off the tee that you discouraged you taking it on. And I think the 12th felt a riskier proposition (as I recall, pretty terminal if you were down on the right?)

I agree with the 4th at St Enodoc....I think I had beginners luck the first time i  played it (but hit it OB on the right second time).

#18 at Prestwick is about 275...but a generally nondescript hole after what precedes it.

#12 at Palos Verdes Golf Club, 255 par 4.  This G. Thomas original plays over a deep barranca, the carry being potentially 180 yards, but also about 40-50 feet uphill.  from here, the hole doglegs right around a small stand of pines to a tiny, tiny green (maybe 25 feet by 20 feet), surrounded by 3 or 4 bunkers.  The scale of the greensite forces strange bunker and pitch shots of 10 feet and under.  The hole is even made prettier by the unique (and long) green footbridge up over the barranca.  An amazing hole in a tight spot that fits this course perfectly.

I love short par 4's, but I had never built one under 300 yards until we started working in Australia, where everything is measured in meters and I paid even less attention to the distances than usual.  As a result we came up with three great par 4's under 300 yards on those two courses ... the 4th and 12th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta).  The fourth at Barnbougle is probably my favorite of the three but I would be happy to include any of them on a course I was building.

I do think there is a strong prejudice for modern designers against building par-4's under 300 yards (350 for some today) or par-5's under 500 yards in today's era of longball.  This despite the fact that some of the best holes in the world fall into the category.

MacKenzie as well as (I believe) some of the other golden age architects discussed holes of this length as not being ideal.  I vaguely recall a discussion that, at this length, one can reach the green even with a poor tee shot.  This view is completely inconsistent with Mackenzie's other belief that the Old Course was the ideal golf course.

#13 at Lahinch is what, about 265?  Plays into the prevailing wind though so it is no pushover.  And I don't think the pathway for rolling it on is more than a few feet wide and I recall the bunker to the front left looking pretty nasty (I hit a massive push about 70 yards right of pin high almost back into the 12th fairway, so that bunker wasn't in play for me last time I was there )

#18 at North Berwick West.  How could this one be left out, it is about 260, nothing defends the green, a mere long iron or fairway wood unless the wind is in your face.  Its just easy enough that you really feel like you ought to make a 3 there every time.  Unless you are a slicer in which case I hear the car park to the right is a concern off the tee.

#9 at TOC.  Only 270 from tees most of us have to play it from, and with only a small pot bunker center right a bit short of the green for defense.  Not a particularly great hole, but on the greatest course in the world it deserves a mention.

There are a plenty more where these came from in the UK, of course...

Ross Creek Landing #4

This is one of the Bear Trace courses in TN.  The hole plays 292 from the tips; the tee I play is only about 250.  It's all uphill, so it plays a bit longer than the yardage suggests.  There are several buners in the line of flight if you are going for the green, so it takes some great precision (or a good bit of luck in my case) to reach the green.



Of course, I'm a bit biased here.  This is where my drive ended up.  I made the putt for my first and only par 4 eagle.

The 3rd is 290 from the blues and 288 from the whites but angle is much easier from the forward tee.You must work the ball right to left from the backs to drive the green.

Sean,

What an 18th hole. Thanks.

Ian

My father-in-law's little 9-hole course in southwestern Minnesota has a very good closing par 4 (9th hole -- sorry, no photos). 248 from the regular tees and probably all of 255 from the back. Elevated tee to a fairly broad fairway in a small valley, with trees down the entire right side and OB the entire left side. The green is small, narrow, crowned and flanked on both left and right sides by two pairs of very large bunkers, with a tiny hidden pot bunker on the backside. The option is pretty simple -- an iron off the tee to the valley, leaving you with a short uphill pitch, or try to slot a drive through the bunkers onto the green. I've putted for eagle there, and had a triple-bogey after yanking one OB. The options make it fun, yes, but its position on the course as the last hole adds to its dimensions, as one can play conversatively or gamble depending on where your match is.

...290 yards from back tee,first photo.And 288 from the members ...

Is this a tyop?