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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2006, 10:50:59 PM »
Better than the views of the smokestacks at Harborside?
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2006, 11:54:18 PM »
> Better than the views of the smokestacks at Harborside?


As amazing as that would seem, yes, just a bit better.


 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2006, 01:24:24 AM »
Interesting -digging lakes in the downside and outward periphery-tollway boundary of the land fill...  There are certainly interesting hole designs including; centerline bunkering, double greens with apparent blind or semi blind approaches, and shared fields of play.  They must have a huge source of extra soil-fill from off site for feature shaping and separation, it seems to me.

One word comes to mind as a worry... leaching!
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2006, 11:11:54 AM »
I think this might be one of the few or only courses that I have ever seen in my life that has water on 11,12,13 and then none of it anywhere else. What does this say about the routing, anything?
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Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2006, 11:41:12 AM »
Ryan,

Wouldn't Harborside win the "Best Views" award hands down.  

Not only does it have the Chicago skyline and freeway views like Chicago Highlands, but it also has beautiful Lake Calumet, the rust belt bridges and smoke stacks and of course the Chicago auto pound.   8)

Augusta has water on 11, 12 and 13.   :o
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Glenn Spencer

Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2006, 11:42:26 AM »
Dan,

15 and 16?
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tlavin

Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2006, 11:45:20 AM »
I've heard that the response has been favorable which is a testament to the fact that Butterfield has an impossibly long waiting list and many people on that list will happily jump to another club where they can be in on the ground floor.  It's also a bit of a testament to blind faith in the architecture, since Hills' other work in the area (Ivanhoe) is fairly vanilla, though quite difficult in spots.  I think there will be enough demand for the project to be completed and it will probably thrive, but unless Arthur Hills has a sudden conversion to minimalism, I think we should expect a long track with a definite resort feel.  I'd much rather go on the other side of the Tri-State and play Butterfield or Butler.
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Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2006, 02:14:48 PM »
Terry,

I think Ivanhoe was Dick Nugent.  In Chicago Hills has done Bolingbrook and Stonewall Orchard.  I don't care for Bolingbrook much at all and though I like Stonewall Orchard quite a bit I can't help but think it could have been better.

I agree with you on Butterfield, a wonderful unsung Langford and Moerau design that may be getting a lot better in the future.  

Glenn,

I don't think you can indict the design based on 11, 12 and 13 being water holes.  So what if there isn't water anywhere else.  
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Glenn Spencer

Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2006, 02:23:17 PM »
Dan,

I am not in any way indicting the design. I have complete confidence that, that will be taken care of later. I am just stating that I have never seen anything like it. I am wondering if anyone else has. 3 holes in a row in the middle of the back and nowhere else. I wonder if there are any like that. I bet not many.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 02:23:51 PM by Glenn Spencer »
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 02:25:01 PM »
I don't think that Bollingbrook is that bad.  Granted, it has a lot of water in preposterous places but it is an enjoyable course to play.  When playing a Bolingbrook Munie built in the middle of the cornfield, what else can be expected?

Butterfield is a great place!  I didn't think the course was very difficult but I had a blast playing it.  

And Terry is right.  By most accounts, Butterfield has a 7 year wait list that is arbitrary in its progression.  Moreover, the Hinsdale, Oak Brook, Western Springs and LaGrange area has lot of significant wage-earners as residents.  

As such, I don't think it will have any problem raising the dough.
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Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2006, 03:21:21 PM »
Glenn,

Fair enough; we'll wait for the indictment.

Besides the fact that its probably the only place they could put water because of the nature of the site it may add an element of interest to the holes which border the freeway.  Can't tell if the water behind 14 green would be in play; that would  make 4 in a row.  
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Don Dinkmeyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2006, 03:32:16 PM »
I grew up in Chicago so i feel somewhat qualified to ask this question -

how are they going to contend with the noise that's inevitable being that close to the TriState, much less the views?

I know at the Indy course it routes into the racetrack for a few holes and its a draw, but a private course with such initiation fees, wow...
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Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2006, 03:34:10 PM »
Steve Smyers and Patrick Andrews (of his office) are the architects at Butterfield.  I know the plan is extensive, but I don't know if it is any sort of restoration of Langford's style.  I'll try to find out.  Amazing that clubs with some just ok golf courses have waiting lists like that.  Must be convenience, though I know some of the clubs have cache having nothing to do with the golf.
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That was one hellacious beaver.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2006, 04:13:59 PM »
Ivanhoe has 27 holes.  The first 18 were completed in 1990 by Nugent.  He added 9 in 1994.  The club was started in large measure with the membership from Thorngate.

In 2000 Arthur Hills was brought in to revise all 27.  There has been additional tinkering ever since.  So in response to the comments above, Ivanhoe's pedigree is Nugent with major revisions by Hills.
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Kyle Harris

Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2006, 05:02:41 PM »
Centerline hazards.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say Kelly Blake Moran had his hand in this.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2006, 08:29:39 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 20, 2006, 01:24:24 AM
One word comes to mind as a worry... leaching!

Dick,

What makes you think they would steal someone else's good architectural ideas? ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2006, 10:14:05 PM »
Ryan

> I don't think that Bollingbrook is that bad.


I'd love to hear more on this.


You must be one who enjoys 18 greens that fall from away from you, front-to-back?!?!?!?!?

 ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 10:19:07 PM by Paul Richards »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2006, 10:19:33 PM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on December 21, 2006, 10:14:05 PM
Ryan

> I don't think that Bollingbrook is that bad.


I'd love to hear more on this.


With 18 greens that fall from front-to-back, you got some 'splainin to do !!

 ;)

Paul,

I thought playing a course in reverse was in vogue these days.... ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2006, 10:48:57 PM »
Quote from: Dan Moore on December 20, 2006, 02:14:48 PM
Terry,

I think Ivanhoe was Dick Nugent.  In Chicago Hills has done Bolingbrook and Stonewall Orchard.  I don't care for Bolingbrook much at all and though I like Stonewall Orchard quite a bit I can't help but think it could have been better.

I agree with you on Butterfield, a wonderful unsung Langford and Moerau design that may be getting a lot better in the future.  

Glenn,

I don't think you can indict the design based on 11, 12 and 13 being water holes.  So what if there isn't water anywhere else.  

Dan:

You can't just throw out teasers like that about a L/M (Butterfield) course and not provide some details. An aerial perhaps, sometime down the road?
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2006, 11:12:36 PM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on December 21, 2006, 10:14:05 PM
Ryan

> I don't think that Bollingbrook is that bad.


I'd love to hear more on this.


You must be one who enjoys 18 greens that fall from away from you, front-to-back?!?!?!?!?

 ;)

If you hit it close, what's the difference?   ;D
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chicago Highlands [Spring 2009]
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2006, 07:29:55 AM »
>I thought playing a course in reverse was in vogue these days....

Joe, great idea.

Tell Shivas and his crew to begin the Reverse Bolingbrook tournament.  I think we are getting some snow next week, so let's go for it!?!?


 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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