Gene,

Great example, #8. And the topper to your comments that keep Shinnecock in that highest echelon of golf courses is that the better the drive down the left edge, the easier that back right pin becomes. Somehow I have a very difficult time aiming the tee shot far enough left and usually bail further right, either in or near the bunker. Talk about dead city.....

I've played Shinny many times over the past 17 years and have found that it is so difficult to play conservatively for all 18 holes.  Usually, you make an early stupid bogey, then another.  After the second mistake, you try to make up for the mistake and then embark upon the bogey train.  The beauty of this course is that a 100 shooter at my old club always shot his handicap because penalty stroke hazards are almost absent.  On the other hand, birdies come from patience --correctly placed drive, iron under hole, solid putt.  Although, both #5 and #16 are reachable, depending upon the wind, one of the two usually plays fairly short; and with a westerly wind, a fairly long player can reach them both during the round.  Over the years, my stroke average is over par, but I have shot a few unders, so it can yield the good to great round.

Speaking of the 8th at Shinnecock, that particular hole just may be the most egregious mis-application of US Open narrowness than any other hole on the course. Obviously we all know what they were doing by narrowing everything down to about 25 yards but they took away totally the Flynn "designed" clever strategic safe play into the green on that hole big-time. Did they actually realize they were nixxing that Flynn designed safe play or ideal angle into the green? Who knows. I don't know what the carry distance was from that new US OPen back tee but they were probably just trying to force a longer tee shot selection on that hole. I believe #8 was the only hole on the Open card under 400 yards. I think it was 399

The club knows it now though. If you follow the line of the left side of that fairway on Flynn's plans and even the 1938 aerial you can see it follows the line of the most left bunker on that enormous field of bunkers that were the carry option out to the far left.

That tee shot demand and that angle from the tee which appears almost straight-on from the tee makes this hole an unusual wrinkle on Flynn fairly common use of what we call the "Reverse" Dogleg. (for this hole to be a total "Reverse" dogleg the Flynn tees would've had to be way over to the right of where he designed them. Unfortunately that starts to jumble with pushed shots off #3 tee if the tees are taken too far right).

The truth is that the ideal angle into the orientation and the slopes and contours of that green including avoiding that dangerous greenside bunker right is about 30 yards into what is now rough on the left side.

We believe the club will seriously consider restoring that fairway way out to the left where it once was, as this is a very clever little hole in that regard for the thinking golfer. Those who aren't thinking tend not to read the "whole" hole design of this hole and try to get next to those fairway bunkers on the right because it probably seems like the straightest line to the green--that aspect really is sort of instinctual. If they take that risk and succeed on the tee shot they are left with far more risk on the approach and the likelihood of doing what Gene Greco saw so much of up at the green in the last US Open.

Wayne and I have taken to calling some of those Flynn "Reverse" dogleg designs "Fake Out" holes---eg many golfers instinctually take the tee shot risk along the inside of the dogleg only to be left with a much worse approach angle from the fairway.  

The par-3s are what separates from other courses of similar length IMO. The long second is a hard three but fairly easy bogey, but the other three are all potential round killers. There is a very fine line between 3 and 5 or a 6.

Other than PV what other course has a more difficult set of par-3s?

I think Gene and Redanman said it well. I found Shinny to be fair, fun and yet punishing if you make a poor shot. One must think and make good shots. Everything was fair, yet demanding. I think the USGA took the fun and balance from the course and possibly gave it a very unjust reputation. The Shinny I played was a delight in every way.

Ted,

Maybe it's just me, but I would argue that the green orientation on the first at Shinnecock warrants favoring the right side off the tee. Taking this to extremes I would say the approach from the left corner of the fairway is awkward and less than ideal while the approach from the right corner has the green opened up right in front of you. Is it enough better to risk going in any of the crap to the right? Maybe not, but the crap on the right is better than the crap on the left I would say.

Interesting how we are explaining our views on the hole because now that you mention the perceived distance to reach the crap on the left, you are correct. Perhaps that is the fake out. Luring one over there out of safety and comfort, after all it is the first hole. And no doubt, from there, so long as you keep the same conservative and comfortable mindset and play to the front of the green a 4 is well likely.

p.s. My best round there (out of about 10 or 12) began with a pulled drive a yard or two into the crap on the left that we could not find. Consequently I am scarred, what a game.

Tom,

Let's talk a bit more about #8.

Maybe Wayne can post an aerial or a drawing.

What is the carry over the longest leftist bunker to get near the ideal approach area? Estimates are fine, but please include the regular men's tee and the current back tee.

If this area is returned as fairway, would the fairway still extend over to those right bunkers that always seem to find my drives? This is about what, 60 yards or more?

Were you suggesting a few posts ago that the hole might work better from a tee way off to the right, closer to #3? My instinct is that it would then be easier to aim at this ideal approach area because it would then become merely a matter of hitting it far enough as opposed to committing to a direction. Visibility would also likely improve because you would then be looking right up the flow of that short part of the fairway. that would certainly make it a dog-leg that could be coined a Fake-Out dogleg, but I think there is a much stronger fake out on the ground right now.

Thanks R,

I would bet the best approach position is about right on top of that sandy cart path over in the fescue. The one closest to the fairway.

The other side of this coin.....is it a requirement to make the best, most ideal approach angle, to a green accessible from the fairway?

Ted,

I think 9 iron to sand wedge is about what I hit into that green, and I will say that the left corner of the current fairway is dramatically better position that the right corner at say 120 yards. The left rough is even better than the right corner of the fairway. You certainly remember the high mound protecting that front right corner, do you also remember the subtle "suck-out" on the back left corner. Coming from the right side of the fairway you're fighting both of these. When it is soft, the only disadvantage to the right side is the visual obstruction from that front right mound, but when it's firm it becomes very difficult to hit the green from 120 from the right side.

Is the fairway way left on #8 a requirement? I doubt anything is a requirement but it makes strategic sense looking at that green. The longest part of that field of carry bunkers is at the left side too.

Tom,

You mis-interpreted my question. It was more philosophical than specific to SHGC.

In general, do you feel it is a fair requirement to prepare the most advantageous approach position to a green as fairway?

With respect to a tournament like the PA Senior Am, and determining a winning score, it's the greens. Firmness, speed and hole locations. Nothing else factors in enough to care, especially at a course with the great reputation LCC has.