Darren I agree with you on how wide is wide depends greatly on the prevailing wind direction and strength of it, the green complex as well as other features on the hole such as fairway bunkers etc. I think one of the reasons Doak, C&C as well as the other professionals who design this way are well recieved on the forum is they do get angles and strategy so well.

Mr Kilfara
Your treatise on the strategy of the 18th at St. Andrews baffles me.
Drive, almost anywhere, and a short iron.
That's it.
No fast and firm, no need to aim, no nothing, just down the stick with a short iron.
For those who can't hit a teeball it gets more complex perhaps .... but then life is always tricky for the inept.  And the wildly inept might, I agree with you, get into spots on natural terain where they could injure themselves .... which is much better than injuring others with their wild shots.  Thankfully, most people play GOLF and leave FLOG ot the few.

Ally,

I think you have summed up the 18th perfectly.

Pat,

Darren is a fine golf player and certainly does not FLOG the ball.  He lived in St. Andrews for a good while and has played the Old course I don't know how many times.

I always listen to Darren because he has a very good perception of how a golf hole can or cannot be played.

I certainly do not agree with you that it is always a short iron into the 18th green at The Old Course.  I have hit eveything from putter to 4 iron and that is the beauty of the hole....a truly fantastice finishing hole and similar to the 18th of North Berwick.

Brian

pat,

i think it's the valley that gives 18 its bite and its strategy (of which i think there's plenty)... 9 is not the best hole agreed but there is a bunker 60 yards short on the right that seems to be very appealing to a 3-wood off the tee and the gorse tight by the green on the left likes the long drivers... 10 has a few more options, doesn't it? bunkering is good and the left side is also tight... i'm not an expert on st andrews by any means - i have only played it a handful of times and the last time i managed to cover 9 & 10 in an aggregate of four strokes *puffs chest out with pride   * so i may have missed some of the strategic options... the first hole to me has less options than 18... i don't dislike it though...

also, not to do with the actual hole... but the feeling of playing directly into the town on 18 is one to cherish...

...on topic, i must make it down to the european next summer... i will tip my hat if i see you around

Hi,

I am guilty of not keeping abreast of the "action" on GCA. Glad to see some Irish going on here.
Just to say that TEC is wonderful but I think some of you may miss the humour in our friend Mr.Ruddy...He has created and is always creating at TEC and it is a testament to his great knowledge and love for the game...and not a little scared to be different...

Slan..

Mr Kilfara
You go down and dirty with this last posting of yours....
"Pat, I have to say, I'm a bit worried about the state of golf course architecture if you're one of its leading practitioners and can't see beyond the class of golfers for whom the 18th at the Old Course is always a drive and a wedge! This lends credence to my initial sense that the European Club is indeed a "black diamond" course designed with the scratch golfer first and foremost in mind. A truly great course needs to at least consider the needs of the 24-handicapper as well as the scratch golfer, doesn't it? I'm borderline horrified to hear you talk this way, as though "strategy" is only something for good players to consider on a golf course".

Just to let you know:
(a) We have all got the message that you are a LOW HANDICAP guy;
(b) We have all got the message that you have written a BOOK.

What isn't clear is whether you are able to read and think clearly.
Read what I wrote and see did I really say that the 18th at St. Andrews is always a drive and a wedge?
No.   I did not.
I merely picked-up on your comment concerning a 100-yard wedge approach.

However, no matter how your imagination runs riot the 18th at St Andrews remains a very short hole, a very flat hole and if it were anywhere else a very basic hole.  

Your remarks on my design abilities and the layout of The European Club are insulting in the extreme and I think that you should consider them.  
I have designed 37 golf courses and all are a success with all standards of golfers.... except, perhaps, a few knowalls ... and I do keep all golfers in mind.
If I didn't do so I would be very hungry and poor.  As it is, I am neither.
I would suggest you try talking to me when you have written a few more books, designed a few golf courses and developed more wit.

Also, if The European Club is that terrible in your eyes why don't you find something of interest and merit to think about.  There are only about 30,000 other courses out there.

Warmest regards
Pat Ruddy

Dave, now that is the sort of post Pat likes. The fact that it is from the heart makes it even better.

Anyone who has not visited The European should read Jim Finegan's chapter on the course in his latest book 'Where Golf is Great'.

He really does get the feel not only of the course but also the passion and effort Pat has put into he life dream.

Jim even takes the mickey in the last paragraph!

Brian

Hello Mr Getka
Before talking design I would like to clarify one thing .... you and others refer to the tone of my early postings on GCA.  I would ask you to read what others have written about me and place yourself in my position. Would you then feel that some extreme language was being used to condemn you and your work? So, my early postings were designed to try and correct this and, of course, one has to go some way along the road of fighting fire with fire.
Evolution?   The greatest evolution in recent times has been in the game itself.  That is clearly recognised by all.  
That said, it seems to me that a golf course has to reconsider itself at intervals merely to keep pace with the evolving game.
Evolution?  Does a person evolve intellectually?  I think so.  Besides, wouldn't it be dull if any artist insisted on painting the same images everytime he/she visited canvass?   I think if is not just valid but very important for any artist/writer/academic/philosopher (what you will) to continue to seek new meanings and shapes in life and (in my case) in golf.
Playability?   You say that you have not played my links but, judging by my writings here, you tend to agree with another who was very condemning of The European Club.  
I would like to say here  that we are one of the busiest golf courses in Britain & Ireland and our visitors are not all single figure golfers or, after the round, suicide cases.  Sure, some people play badly .... but some people miss 2-foot putts as well!  Happily, several times a week we receive letters of thanks from very good golfers for affording them a fine game and the best hospitality I and my family can muster.
Details?  I prefer not to dissect my links.  Had a scratchman the other day write to me asking to explain in advance of his visit how he should play each hole.  Like asking a magician for a booklet containing all the answers as one entered the theatre!, was my response.  He was happy with that answer.  It has taken me 35-years in the field to develope the questions and it is fun watching people seeking the answers (plural).
I hope you do visit some day, have a  nice game, and go away feeling that you have not wasted a day in your life.  Whether you think the links is great or otherwise will be up to yourself and that won't bother me providing you don't become a linguistic extremist on the internet.

Mr. Ruddy,
    I am not agreeing with anyone's condemnation of TEC. I was pointing out that you seem to focus on how stern a test your course provides. Every architect has bias in how they design courses, whether it be length, forced carries, penal features, demanding greens and surrounds, use of water, etc... There is nothing wrong with that to me. I know that my bias is to favor courses with really interesting and demanding greens and surrounds, and no or little water. I dislike water because I can't play a golf shot from it and hitting shots is why I play golf in the first place. As a 12 handicap?, my greatest weakness is off the tee, and my strength (at least in my mind) is my short game. Thus my bias.
   One of the great things about this site is that I now know people who know what I like and I know their preferences, so we are able to help each other find courses of interest.
   Most architects will say they design their courses for every class of golfer, but often that is simply not the case. I am not saying you do this, because I haven't even seen your work. All I am saying is that we all have biases, and yours seems to be an emphasis on championship level golf. I could be completely wrong, but that is the sense I get from what I have read here.
   Most of the guys here seem to like what you have done at TEC, and I don't know of any higher compliment than that.
    I wish you continued success in your endeavors.

Hello again Mr Getka
Your latest posting throws some light on our debate.
You are looking at life as a 12-handicap.
I have been talking about life off the tips at The European Club in the context of a debate on modern, major golf courses......and the tips certainly would not be a good place for a 12-handicap or an 8-handicap or even a 5-handicap (or even some of the scratchmen who never break 80 in amateur championship fare .... we have lots of them in this country and presumably we don't have a lock hold on the world supply of those chaps) on any course that purports to be of modern championship calibre.
Mr. Williamson hits the nail on the head (see posting before this one).  Play the tees that suit and you will do well. On our Welcome Card we advise guests to choose their tees wisely and, if they don't, not to go away saying they were murdered .... rather, they have just committed golfing suicide!
Obviously, when you take the various tees into consideration any golf course becomes a many splendoured thing.  The possible permutations become virtually endless and that, along with fluctuating form and mood within the player, is what creates the big mystery!
I am just a little shocked that anyone would consider that any designer would be one-dimensional ... but I forgive you!
If ever you visit and I am at home we will share a pot of tea and some apple pie!

Mr. Mitchell.
Thank you for that.  Good news is that design evolution has overtaken the pond on 18 and I hope you might enjoy the squirming burn which now resides there!

This lends credence to my initial sense that the European Club is indeed a "black diamond" course designed with the scratch golfer first and foremost in mind. A truly great course needs to at least consider the needs of the 24-handicapper as well as the scratch golfer, doesn't it? I'm borderline horrified to hear you talk this way, as though "strategy" is only something for good players to consider on a golf course.

What would George Crump have said on this issue?