Black Mesa, NM, Not my cup of tea!

« **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:40:26 PM »

Garland
I, for one, really appreciate any constructive differentiation between golf and cart golf here. I'm less and less interested in desert/mountain/desert golf (I only have so much time to play and I must figure out my priorities...) but Black Mesa was a course I had thought I might like to see. I am certain that you have saved me from an almost certainly frustrating visit. Cheers.

« **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:19:41 PM »

Caveats aside..

I prefer to read and more greatly value course reviews related to qualitative gca, not how someone played a course.. sorry

If the latter is to prevail or have any reference value then we need to know how you warmed up, typical versus actual carry distances and shot heights for your clubs, hcp. index, last time you played, did you drink too much at the Pink Flamingo the night before, what time you played, the temp, the round's pace, quantitative issues..

At the BM Land of Enchantment Tour, there were a group of walkers in the morning round as I remember.. Ms Sheila and I rode for two rounds as a means of preservation, but there were many times that both of us walked good portions of holes for interests and good cart management..

I would not advise anyone to miss playing this course.. especially due to a mis-labelling of it as cart ball! that's absurd.

« **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:58:35 PM »

Quote from: Garland Bayley on January 28, 2007, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: Andy Troeger on January 28, 2007, 09:31:30 AM

Garland,
Be that as it may, its not the fault of the golf course that you could only play it once or twice. It sounds more like you like blind holes once you've seen them enough times to know where you're going!

Given its location, there are going to be an awful lot of people that will play it once or twice. I believe that is something that should have been understood from the beginning. So perhaps it is a bit of the "fault of the golf course".

Garland,
With all due respect, the same could be said for just about any course.
For Black Mesa, given its location, most people are going to skip it entirely. Given its location, the only chance the course had to be profitable was to create an interesting course that people would want to come see from miles and miles. People that want to see it badly enough the first time will come back if they like it. Those who don't care for it won't come back. Better than no one showing up in the first place!

« **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:02:34 AM »

Quote from: ed_getka on January 28, 2007, 04:56:55 PM

Garland,
I know what others think about Black Mesa. I was wondering what you thought. I don't mind at all if you don't care for the presentation of the course in terms of blindness and walking factors.
Some day I plan to do the same rotation you had planned on. I too want to see Talking Stick, Apache, BM, Pinon, plus when I make it that far I'm going to see the Rawls course also.

Ed,

Beside the green surrounds of which most were quite interesting, there are definitely parts of BM that are real fun. #4 is a neat Dell style hole. #11 is a good par 3. #14 is a wonderful hole with temptation, strategy, the whole nine yards. #16 was a whole new par 5 experience for me. #17 is a good hole.

Although most all holes are solid, the bunkering seems a bit over the top on some. Look up the course just southeast of Esapnola on google earth. Decide for yourself whether you feel there is a need for all that sand on some of the holes.

« **Reply #29 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:08:32 AM »

Quote from: Tony Petersen on January 28, 2007, 07:47:36 PM

If Black Mesa is "Desert Golf" then what is Desert Forest??? It never occured to me when I've played Black Mesa that it's a desert course... On the contrary, I found the natural use of the features to be organic, flowing, call it what you will... But not desert golf. The rumor is that Doak is designing the second course... I know the owners have deep pockets and want it to evolve into a Bandon Dunes of the Southwest...

Tony,

Almost the entire western half of the US would be classified as desert with the exception of some coastal areas. Just because there are no cactii, doesn't mean it isn't desert. At BM if you stray off the fairway, you are in desert. Now there may be some meaning to desert golf that I am not aware of. Perhaps it means it must be 105 in the shade, or perhaps it means you must ride a cart. I play golf in the rain in the Pacific NW. So Black Mesa sure looks like desert to me.

« **Reply #30 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:23:30 AM »

Quote from: Steve Lang on January 28, 2007, 11:19:41 PM

Caveats aside..

I prefer to read and more greatly value course reviews related to qualitative gca, not how someone played a course.. sorry

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "how someone played a course."

Quote

If the latter is to prevail or have any reference value then we need to know how you warmed up, typical versus actual carry distances and shot heights for your clubs, hcp. index, last time you played, did you drink too much at the Pink Flamingo the night before, what time you played, the temp, the round's pace, quantitative issues..

At the BM Land of Enchantment Tour, there were a group of walkers in the morning round as I remember.. Ms Sheila and I rode for two rounds as a means of preservation, but there were many times that both of us walked good portions of holes for interests and good cart management..

Is this where you tell us "how you played the course" was to ride both rounds with interludes of walking?

Quote

I would not advise anyone to miss playing this course.. especially due to a mis-labelling of it as cart ball! that's absurd.

Let's see. I walked it, you rode. I played golf, you played cart ball. So I should not label it a cart ball course. Gotcha. Glad I took all that math and logic at the U, otherwise how would I understand all this.

Don't get too upset. I am just yanking your chain a little.

I understand that cart ball labels are relative and can be understood to be personal and different for other persona.

I will even fess up that I took advantage of the replay with cart to save myself a little. It was the first time in my 50 odd years that I had ever driven a cart. Played the back 9 first and the cart died in the 6th fairway. It didn't cotton to hauling my 265 lbs. up the hill to the 7th either.

« **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:35:09 AM »

Quote from: Andy Troeger on January 28, 2007, 11:58:35 PM

Quote from: Garland Bayley on January 28, 2007, 10:54:53 AM
Quote from: Andy Troeger on January 28, 2007, 09:31:30 AM

Garland,
Be that as it may, its not the fault of the golf course that you could only play it once or twice. It sounds more like you like blind holes once you've seen them enough times to know where you're going!

Given its location, there are going to be an awful lot of people that will play it once or twice. I believe that is something that should have been understood from the beginning. So perhaps it is a bit of the "fault of the golf course".

Garland,
With all due respect, the same could be said for just about any course.
For Black Mesa, given its location, most people are going to skip it entirely. Given its location, the only chance the course had to be profitable was to create an interesting course that people would want to come see from miles and miles. People that want to see it badly enough the first time will come back if they like it. Those who don't care for it won't come back. Better than no one showing up in the first place!

OK Andy,

It is time for me to speak pure heresy. I have not played a Fazio course, but I understand that his resort courses are well liked, because he lays everything out there in front of you. I suspect that if I am going to play a course only once, I might like a Fazio over a Spann.

Probably the biggest fault with that is trying to judge a course extensively with only a single play! Now I've played BM twice so I am an expert.

The truth be told, part of the reason, I will not go in depth into analysis of the course is that I have so little experience of it. About all the depth I can give you is preferences such as I like the 16th at Hideout better than the 7th at BM.

« **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2007, 09:20:20 AM »

Garland,
Hey...what's great about golf courses is that there's different ones for different folks. We can rate and rank and play all we want and good minded folks will still disagree. As I said before, I commend you for analyzing a GCA favorite that you didn't care for.

I've played three Fazios myself...both courses at World Woods and The Estancia Club. I liked all three of those too. I have Black Mesa ahead of all of them, but not by much.

« **Reply #33 on:** January 29, 2007, 10:25:10 AM »

Garland,
Thanks for the response. As Andy pointed out we all have preferences and it useful to know what those preferences are when reading someones opinion.
Any plans to get back to the area to see the other courses you had wanted to see?

« **Reply #34 on:** January 29, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »

My two sense, after one round at BM last fall:

- Really tough to play 1x. No caddies, no yardage books, no signs, no GPS. On one hole (#5?) there was a B&W checkered aiming flag on a hill...so one would assume the preferred line of play would be directly over that. Wrong -- try 20 yards right. Blind shots and serious fairway contours are fun, but the first time out with no help, they're frustrating.

- Walkable? The group ahead of us walked, and kept up, too, probably because they were locals and knew where they werer going, and we didn't. But it looked like a LONG walk.

If I were a local I would play this course often, and probably be a better golfer for it - rolling fairways produce uneven lies, several preferred angles to play towards and practice accuracy, and tough (too tough?) green sites, with trouble on one side and a 15- ft bank on the other.

But visit NM and BM again? Once was enough for me, until I see the rest of the (golfing) world. But I would recommend it to anyone I know, and they will be better for having seen it.

« **Reply #35 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:20:29 PM »

Quote from: Matt MacIver on January 29, 2007, 11:58:11 AM

My two sense, after one round at BM last fall:

- Really tough to play 1x. No caddies, no yardage books, no signs, no GPS. On one hole (#5?) there was a B&W checkered aiming flag on a hill...so one would assume the preferred line of play would be directly over that. Wrong -- try 20 yards right. Blind shots and serious fairway contours are fun, but the first time out with no help, they're frustrating.

- Walkable? The group ahead of us walked, and kept up, too, probably because they were locals and knew where they werer going, and we didn't. But it looked like a LONG walk.

If I were a local I would play this course often, and probably be a better golfer for it - rolling fairways produce uneven lies, several preferred angles to play towards and practice accuracy, and tough (too tough?) green sites, with trouble on one side and a 15- ft bank on the other.

But visit NM and BM again? Once was enough for me, until I see the rest of the (golfing) world. But I would recommend it to anyone I know, and they will be better for having seen it.

Guess I don't understand the no GPS comment. You may have been there close to the time I was, and there certainly was GPS in the carts.

I feel they cater to cartballers. If you walk, they give you a scorecard with no map. How am I supposed to find the walking path from 6 green to 7 tee, if I have no idea which direction 7 tee might be in? They give cartballers a cart with GPS, why can't they give walkers a yardage book? At least put the two on somewhat equal status.

« **Reply #36 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:25:40 PM »

I was there in mid- Sept. 06 and don't recall GPS in the carts. But then again I really don't like GPS so maybe it was there and I chose to over-look it.

Either way I really wanted a yardage book, to steer my way around and for a souvenier.

« **Reply #37 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:27:58 PM »

Garland,

I have loved your review so far but have to say that the last thing I want on a golf course is a bunch of signs pointing out where to go or hit it for those too ignorant to figure it out themselves.

« **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:36:53 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 29, 2007, 12:27:58 PM

Garland,

I have loved your review so far but have to say that the last thing I want on a golf course is a bunch of signs pointing out where to go or hit it for those too ignorant to figure it out themselves.

Not sure I follow you John.

What signs are you referring to?

« **Reply #39 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:40:16 PM »

Guys, with great respect, I have to disagree.

1. I had no problem whatsoever walking Black Mesa. You cant really call them walking "paths per say", but I didnt have to wind around on the cart path or anything...it's not as if the direct line to the fairway is impeded or anything. I had no problem whatsoever. plus the walks between holes are short. Yes, its tough on the first play. But fun nevertheless.

The routing is fantastic, the greens are almost human they have so much character, the natural setting is terrific and the price is unbelievable.

Black Mesa makes strong case for the best golf value in America and is, IMHO, one of the three most important public facilities to open in this country since Sawgrass. (The others being Bandon Dunes and Tobacco Road.

Oh...and read Rans excellent interview with Baxter Span...he says he was inspired by Tobacco Road!

« **Reply #40 on:** January 29, 2007, 12:43:52 PM »

Garland,

I thought you were wanting more signage to point you along the way. Please excuse me if I was wrong.

« **Reply #41 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:06:06 PM »

Quote from: Jay Flemma on January 29, 2007, 12:40:16 PM

Guys, with great respect, I have to disagree.

1. I had no problem whatsoever walking Black Mesa. You cant really call them walking "paths per say", but I didnt have to wind around on the cart path or anything...it's not as if the direct line to the fairway is impeded or anything. I had no problem whatsoever. plus the walks between holes are short. Yes, its tough on the first play. But fun nevertheless.

Cary says he loved the forced carries. Apparently you say you walked through what he was forced to carry. The only thing I can see that reconciles this is that you maybe played the forward tees. You know the ones in bygone years that were called ladies tees.

Your definition of short is certainly different than mine. I suspect if you ran your definition of short by any of the golden age designers, you would be found to be quite humorous.

Quote

The routing is fantastic, the greens are almost human they have so much character, the natural setting is terrific and the price is unbelievable.

Black Mesa makes strong case for the best golf value in America and is, IMHO, one of the three most important public facilities to open in this country since Sawgrass. (The others being Bandon Dunes and Tobacco Road.

Oh...and read Rans excellent interview with Baxter Span...he says he was inspired by Tobacco Road!

Best golf value? Until that 50% inflation go to GD this year, Black Mesa didn't even qualify for GD affordable.

« **Reply #42 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:11:26 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 29, 2007, 12:43:52 PM

Garland,

I thought you were wanting more signage to point you along the way. Please excuse me if I was wrong.

You're excused John. All I want is a map.

I was there at first light, so I suspect I was the only one they let on the course in the morning, because they were have a member/guest that day and they judged I would be able to get out of the way of their front 9 shotgun start.

Since you cannot see the next tee from most greens, a map would have been much appreciated. What is your alternative? Walk the cart paths.

« **Reply #43 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:19:02 PM »

My alternative is always accompanied play. BM being a public course gets huge credits from me for not over signing the place. I feel that signs are an assumption of the stupidity of clientele.

« **Reply #44 on:** January 29, 2007, 01:36:17 PM »

Garland.. no problem, yank all you want, the chain isn't connected.

I appreciate the BM Walking Blues you're sharing, i just don't accept your final gca value set which seems to be based upon whether one walked or rode.. Ms. Sheila & I walked Rustic in under 4 hours.. it was a great experience, even with those couple of tough hikes as others have noted, but it'd have been different if we rode???

I assume globally that any gca trying to capture the best topography of a site for an overall routing is going to bias things towards the game's playing fields first. Folks aren't coming back or rating a course great because of the short green to tee distances..

« **Reply #45 on:** January 29, 2007, 02:05:12 PM »

John
Take a trip up to Greywalls and play the course without looking at the signs. I can guarantee you will play a course different than Mike D. routed. No knock on Mike, you will understand when you see the land.
Someone wants a map of the course and you are implying they are ignorant?

I guess the old John is back.

« **Reply #46 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:43:43 PM »

Ed..

I saw walkers at Greywalls and noticed some direct green to tee paths, but many holes the cart path would be one's only guide..

also.. how about standing at the 2nd tee or green for that matter at Kingsley and figuring out where to go to ?

movement is part of the experience but doesn't dominate it..

« **Reply #47 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:45:52 PM »

And I thought I was the only one on board with issues at Black Mesa....

The funny thing is, I don't have a big problem with the walkability of the course, though I don't have Garland's eyesight problem. I walked it the first time with JohnV, Jonathan and Doug Wright, and I don't think any of us thought it was that brutal of a walk. I personally thought it was that brutal of a course, for high handicappers, anyway.

Doug Wright even managed to make the walk while carrying my 200 pounds to victory in our match.

I have a lot of issues with the coure, but not so much with its walkability. It's certainly not an easy walk, or one I would probably try twice in one day, but I've walked harder courses.

« **Reply #48 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:53:19 PM »

It's not a brutal walk. At no point did I intend to imply that it is. It is a less than an optimally enjoyable walk for the reasons stated. However, if you were to attempt to walk all the holes directly from tee to fairway as Jay implies he did, it would be a brutal walk, especially with the slick muddy clay that was there the day I played.

« **Reply #49 on:** January 29, 2007, 04:57:10 PM »

Steve,
Good point regarding Kingsley. You could just as easily head down #3 as #5. Maybe Mike does like to confuse us golfers.

Thanks for bringing up Kingsley. It is one of my favorite golf courses.

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