Hunt - to post this image, you need to

1. get rid of the first / before the first bracketed IMG

2. move the last / to just inside the closing bracketed IMG.

voila

#5 at Mountain Lake is said to be the original style that Raynor employed there and that Silva merely recreated it.

Gerry B: the hole is no longer at Biarritz France - had a friend there last year and had him loaded with questions to get answers for ......... nothing even in the area of the original hole .... just housing

Hey Jeff - so your down there with Peter cool - I'll be coming down in  a couple months I think and will certainly stop by .....

about Yeamans Biarritz and most others ....

even though the Raynor drawing at Yeamans Hall and other courses ALL show what might be interpreted as the "so-called" double green-look, they were not built that way .... except perhaps Yale and one other.

However I love the dramatic the "double green" effect.

The side bunkering, often removed, is a much needed feature - this bunkering was meant to have you "confined" into the narrow, hard surface approach "fairway" (or "fairgreen" as was usually written on their plans). Miss the approach (Macdonald called this area a "HOG'S-BACK" area and there were originally a couple of spines running thru here that were meant to shunt you off into the side bunkering   ......   a bumpy approach ground game!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take this concepts one step further .....  there were these deflection mounds on the front "fairway" area - so how could you "pin" there?

remember the basic Macdonald and Raynor par-3 concept .....  a wonderful balance of one shot holes:

Short one shotter: the Short   .....  135 - 145 yds

Medium one shotter: the Eden .....   160 - 175 yds

Long one shotter: Redan   ............  185- 200 yds

Unreachable, on the fly, one shotter    usually just flat-out 235 yds ...........  pin in the back - NOT in the front or in the swale

if you want to put it there ...... hey, go ahead!!  

why have a hole at 235-245 yds? .....  for variety?? doesn't make sense to me ... ...... variety?? that's why you have the other par-3s at the various lengths

i don't get the discussion ................   I'm sure Yale just evolved into putting the pin up front .... remember it was mostly for the students ........... (perhaps too good a golf hole (originally) for that type course) but how could Raynor ignore the topo ...

here's one for you .....   if you look closely at the Yale drawing in Scotland's Guilt - Kolff (hah) you will see that the Redan and Biarritz locations were switched when built ..... Raynor/Macdonald probably saw the higher "perch" of the tee box and decided it would be better with the higher tee-box on the Biarritz hole.

So now you want to "modernize" this entire concept?? well then why are you thinking Macdonald and Rayor - this is now YOUR concept, not theirs

rottcott: yes, it was on the Biarritz la Phare course but the hole (the 3rd hole - "Chasm") is no longer there

Here is the Biarritz 5th Hole at Fishers Island:




George Bahto - I am interested in your thoughts on this hole.  I was looking forward to seeing it after playing a few of Raynor's other Biarritz holes - Yale, Yeaman's.  But this one seems to have really lost most of it's front section.  Is this hole very different from when the course opened?  Does this hole still deserve the title "biarritz"?.....or perhaps it would need an overhaul to remain in the category?

Jonathan:

I have to agree with George Bahto 100% re Fishers Island's 5th. The back tee box coupled with the potential wind, elevation change and the terrain to carry makes this one of the best. This hole also follows one of the best under 400 yard par 4 's you will ever play (an alps/punchbowl combo) and it still holds its own.

George:
I don't want to get into a fight with you but both of the old blueprints show the 16th green at Yeamans Hall as being at least 60-70 yards long. This would tell me that the green was at that point (1926) a full biarritz green.
Mr. Silva with whom I unfortunately am not a fan (I feel he puts his own "mark" on the "Seth Raynor" courses he re-designs) has a biarritz at the Everglades that is 32 yards from front to back with the swale incorporated into the green. Come on down and we'll talk about it.

As for TEPaul
Believe it or not I do know how you know that I was interested in golf course architecture. I know that the committee feels it has made the best descision for the club. Definitely, no hard feelings. I am a student of Seth Raynor designs and I love Donald Ross. I would absolutely love to see every golf course designed between 1890 to 1940 in it's original state. Even now a days. I look forward to chatting with you in the future.

jeff

"...... both of the old blueprints show the 16th green at Yeamans Hall as being at least 60-70 yards long. This would tell me that the green was at that point (1926) a full Biarritz green."

Jeff, all the Raynor and Banks drawings of Biarritz holes were just like the ones at Yeamans Hall - I must have 40 of them around here - theirs, not mine.

The point is that they were representative of the overall green complex and may not mean the green was meant as putting surface for the entire 70+/- yards. The original drawing for Piping Rock is the same and it was not built as "entire putting green"

Regardless, I personally wish they were all full putting surfaces - they're beautiful like that.

I have seen (in drawings and in person) 4 different versions of Biarritz holes. The "odd-balls" were/are just a few.

A couple of examples (ignoring the "normal" style):

1. Single green versions are prevalant - these without indications of a "front section" ..........   Blind Brook - Otto Kahn's course and there are others. These are often mistaken for Eden holes.

2. Essex County CC in NJ has a downhill version with a diagonal crossbunker that ran (most of it still there) some 125-yards. The green is on a bit of an angle. right to left, length 235.

3. A real odd-ball, and a beauty, was the reversed horseshoe bunkering on Westhampton's 17th, now gone. The horseshoe encompassed the 70+/- yard area of the "green, although there is only a distinct single green (no swale).


Jonathan: What you see at F/Is is just as built! Again, although shorter (probably for the reasons I stated earlier) I think it is one of the finest examples.

jeffraim,

    I agree with you concerning Silva's work at Everglades. I started a thread concerning Silva's work there some time ago. I have not seen any original blueprints but I have seen an old aerial photo from the mid-70's. At that time #1 was considerably shorter and did not have a dogleg (I think it was a par 4 at the time) and the redan hole was not fronted by water as it is now. Also, there is no indication of a punchbowl green complex at the short eighth- nor of the Biarritz (although it might have disappeared by then). Looking at the aerial, it is difficult to tell where the replica holes fell-but after having played it and spent some time wandering around I was left with the impression that Silva' did not attempt to follow the original Raynor work to the letter. Then again, I have not seen any blueprints and have no idea what the course might have looked like originally. Everglades seems to me to be a Brian Silva "reinterpretation" of a Seth Raynor course-which left me feeling sort of "cheated"- as for Yeamans Hall I have seen the blueprints as well and agree that the 16th looks like a double green on paper but a quick look at the topography of the run-up area short of the green has always looked to me like it could never have been mowed as green-too much slope and I do not think there is any evidence the side bunkers extended too much(mabye a little bit)further forward than they do now. There is a great Biarritz at Shoreacres that was not originally a "full" green but has been restored as such-it works nicely in part because the topography (at least on that hole) is relatively flat and minimal earthmoving was required. I think Yeamans Hall's Biarritz most closely resembles Camargo's-which is mown as fairway in front-at least of the Raynor courses I have played.

Gents,

If you want to see the newly restored Biarritz at Cavalier Golf and Yacht, go to www.georgegolfdesign.com and look in our renovation section.  Most of the famour Banks, Raynor holes are in there.

Letser

Now you all know why I left the technology industry.  I can't even type my own name and I post things twice because I'm not good at this.  Oh well......

LESTER

http://www.ville-biarritz.fr/francais/cgi-bin/sport_golf_phare.asp

The link above should get you to a more detailed description of golf at Biarritz.  Most importantly, the photo on the home page shows where the original "Chasm" hole existed (it is the 200 yard+ the carry over the inlet of the ocean towards the condos at the top of the photo).  I think this routing is true, and if so seems to imply that CPC #16 might be the original US "Biarritz, and maybe, just maybe, there is some credence to the conspiracy theory espoused on here by me and Tommy Naccarato to the effect that Marion H and Alister MacK stole Seth Raynor's hidden plans for that great course........

I told you guys, the Biarritz at Mountain Lake (#5) is pretty darn good.......par there is a heck of a score, especially when the cup is back right....no margin for error.