[ForkaB]

17 Pebble is a disappointing hole only if the pin is on the right.  When it is on the left, it is superb, particularly form the back tees in a bit of wind.

At TOC I've played the Road Hole with the pin on the false front and the 18th with the pin 50 yards to the right of the Valley of Sin.  Talk about dissapointing!

[A_Clay_Man]

17 Pebble is a disappointing hole only if the pin is on the right.  When it is on the left, it is superb, particularly form the back tees in a bit of wind.

At TOC I've played the Road Hole with the pin on the false front and the 18th with the pin 50 yards to the right of the Valley of Sin.  Talk about dissapointing!

Rihc- I almost didn't catch your humor in the last statement but I did want to comment on your first. You state;

"17 Pebble is a disappointing hole only if..."

Only if you have some form of unrealistic expectation.

I guess thats what bothers me about this whole thread, it implies expectations.

Pat- I wonder if someday we could discuss the difference between NOT seeing the green surface on #8 at Spanish when the reeds are up, versus, Not being able to see the green surface on the 17th at PB?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie Beck,

I would erase your post before others, who tend to be more violent, see it.

Tis best to not speak so that others only think you don't know what you're talking about, rather then open your mouth and prove it.  

Did you hit a 9-iron from the 195 yard back tee  ?

After playing the first three holes after a heavy rain, didn't you notice that the ground was soggy and wet and that you weren't getting any roll, and that a high trajectory shot, especially with a 9-iron would stay where it hit ??

TEPaul,

I used to think that you were the KING of oblivion, had no powers of observation and didn't get it.  But, your title has been usurped.  You can relax now  

A Clayman,

There is a huge difference in the two.

At #17 you can see the boundaries of the green and the surrounding features.  You can determine the location of the hole relative to the surrounding features and trouble

At # 8 you can't see any of the above, and water in play is an added hazard.

But, it was a nice try.

[ForkaB]

No humo(u)r this time, Adam

17 is an extremely mediocre golf hole when the pin is on the right half of the green.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- It was more than a try. Your contention that the 17th green is somehow visible, or at least it's confines, is only true for the smallest of sections, on the right. The front bunker lip, is high enough that being able to distinguish what's long, short, right or left is often difficult, and I am farsighted. Also, I have seen many a ball pulled that found the cove of that little hazard known as the pacific. And even that is difficult to distinguish because of how it slopes away and seeing the actual boundary is near to impossible.

Someone suggested Raising the tee box, I feel it would not be in keeping with what I consider to be a re-ocurring motiff at PB.  Plus, all that deception and uncertainty caused by the high bunker lip would be negated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

If one doesn't get the tactical signals sent to the eye by the green and surrounding features at # 17 they have no eye.

At # 8 it is impossible for all but superman to get any tactical signals due to the reeds, which totally obstruct one's view.

Comparing the two, is beyond any stretch of the imagination.

[A_Clay_Man]

Rihc- Now that really is funny. Mediocrity and the 17th hole have never occupied the same synapses, ever. Part of the genius of that front bunker, with all it's tounges and freeformed ameobia-like shapes,is,that furthest right finger that gives the shot to a right side pin, something to carry. while being on the perfect line of charm. Other attributes that make this rightside the antithesis of mediocre is how deceptive those birdie putts really are. The pull of Pt. Lobos across the water is key in determining how much break.

[A_Clay_Man]

Field Trip!

If Mr. Mucci would allow it, I'd suggest we ask our favorite peninsula resident to take an objective gander at that leftside of 17, with an eye on whether the boundries of that greensite are actually visible. I'll even allow for the use of half an apple box, so Mr. Huntley could view it closer to Pat's perspective. ;D To be fair, I think each teeing ground should have their own results.



Way cool! Thanx Peter.

[Donnie Beck]

Pat,

I see your point and I concede. I am in no way implying the redan is weak. I guess a better topic for my post would have been” Most disappointing shot on reknowned hole is year”. With the STRONG wind I hit 9 iron from 185. I figured the wind would keep the trajectory down and the ball landed perfectly where I wanted it to about a ft or so on the front left center of the green. I expected the ball to release and roll towards the hole, which it didn’t due to the rains. Obviously maybe a knocked down 6 iron might have been a better choice. I don’t know about you, but I don’t get a chance to play NGLA very often so for me it was a very disappointing shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie Beck,

Did you consider hitting a provisional  

[Doug Siebert]

17 Pebble is a disappointing hole only if the pin is on the right.  When it is on the left, it is superb, particularly form the back tees in a bit of wind.

At TOC I've played the Road Hole with the pin on the false front and the 18th with the pin 50 yards to the right of the Valley of Sin.  Talk about dissapointing!

#18 TOC with the pin way right would be pretty uninspiring these days, but back in the days of gutta percha I imagine a full mid iron to the green set that close to OB was perhaps more difficult than playing through the Valley of Sin, especially considering the natural backstop that exists behind for rolling shots struck too firmly.

Come to think of it, I took a whack at it last time with the pin behind the Valley (leaving a chip from front left along the top spine of the Valley, a worst place to end up cannot be imagined!)  If the pin was way right I might have left the driver in the bag, especially as I'd just put one in the driving range on #16 after ignoring my caddie's advice about aiming well left off the tee!

I guess it just goes to show that whether a hole is disappointing or not can depend on how it is set up that day, the skill (or perhaps foolishness) of the golfer involved, the wind/weather/conditions that day, etc.

[ForkaB]

Doug

I once argued on this site that if they could "move" the Valley of Sin to the far right of the 18th, allowing for a "Sunday" pin position in the far corner, up against the fence, it would be a far "better" hole.  Of course, if they did that, the R&A would have to move its clubhouse too, to retain its primo position in terms of viewing finishes in Opens.....

Adam

You're getting all weepy and nostalgic over a part of a hole of PB that just doesn't deserve it.  Save your emotion for when the East Coast mafia tries one of their periodic attempts to slag the whole course.

[ChipOat]

Adam, Pat and Rich beat me to it.

The right-side pin on #17 at Pebble is NOT the "real" golf hole.

Left pin, 200+ yards - what a great hole no matter what the wind is doing.

[ForkaB]

Yes, Chip

After they start listening to us and remove that stupid tree from the 18th and recontour that green with a R -> L oceanward cant, then we'll go after the 17th!  Make the right hand side there into a bail out/chipping area, and keep the left side as probably the smallest greensite of any 200+ yard hole in the world!  We'll shape up that old hag of a course, buddy, if they'll just let us........

[Doug Siebert]

Rich, I'd argue that they should put the Sunday position in the far right anyway, at least so long as Sunday isn't unusually cold or see the wind going against the player at 18.  Perhaps you or someone else who has played TOC more than I have can comment on this, but I'll bet that as hard as it would be to two putt from the Valley to the traditional pin placement, it'd be quite a bit harder from there to a far right placement.

I think anyone going for the green would naturally play more towards the center, and even then the risk of OB would make misses more likely to the left than the right.  The Valley would still see a bit of action.  Isn't it also more easy to go long with a really overcooked drive in the back right than the back left?  Perhaps that pin position makes a simple 3W/pitch-and-run birdie too easy for the world's top pros, but having the field think of the hole as a par 3 has its own advantages.

Sure would make for an interesting time if an early finisher posted a great final round and a few guys came up to 18 tee needing a two to tie.  The two would be a more realistic possibility with the far right position, but it also brings the Rusacks' dining room window into play if the nerves get to be too much  

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Now post a picture where the reeds from the water obscure everything, including the entire green and its surrounds at # 8 at Spanish Bay, and let the peanut gallery decide if there is any similarity in the two holes from a visual point of view.

If you don't get the tactical signal sent to your eye by the above photo, then you just don't get it.

P.S.  The photo could have been shifted to the left to provide a more accurate view of the entire green and surrounds.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I don't post pictures. These are stolen from the PB website. Believe me I wish I could post better pictures. But the one I did post of 17, with any analysis other than cursory, one can easily see the hiegth of both the front and back bunker mounding. The level of the green is below the line of sight. The left side mound where Watson chipped in from, is not as distinguishable as I assume you assume. I have golfed this hole a minimum of 20 times and have witnessed it on hundreds of shots. While I have sometimers, I do recall vivdly have difficulty picking up on exactly where the ball lands, everytime, and needed to use my intuition or ask how well it was struck. Heck, many balls look really really good but end up, not. Part of the charm is NOT knowing and having to wait until you get up there. Very similar to #8 at Spanish Bay, when the reeds are high. When they are cut, that mystery or uncertainty is gone.

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