[Jack_Marr]

Australia, specifically Sydney, is supposed to have the best food in the world now. It's a fusion of the food of all the cultures that flocked there. The produce is also very good.

I know lots of Irish people who have gone over there, and almost all loved the place. Everything is much better value once you're there.

I am also finding that the advertised "brash" culture is not as widespread as I once thought.

Not only that, but almost every Australian I meet in Ireland complains about the place (Ireland) and wants to go back home. It must be a great place.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The faires are in about in the middle of the range for those of us who might fly from somewhere other than the two coasts. Doesn't the Rings movie start the 17th? I feel the call of New Zealand.

[Norbert P]

 I hope, see and plan to go in two years.  Being monetarily challenge, I've signed away one of my kidneys for a ticket.  
For the time being, I'm travelling with my mind via books, GCA and doing some research on the histories of Tasmania, Australia and New Zealand.  Maybe I'll just sail over on a sloop.



 

[Chris Kane]

Seeing the sandbelt and the rest of (worthwhile) Australian golf does not require three weeks.  Two weeks would do justice to the region, provided you're willing to play 36 a day, and are there for the golf, not extraneous sightseeing

(in no particular order)
Day 1: Royal Melbourne West, Royal Melbourne East
Day 2: Kingston Heath, Victoria
Day 3: Commonwealth, Yarra Yarra
Day 4: Metropolitan, Huntingdale
Day 5: Royal Melbourne West again, Woodlands
Day 6: Ranfurlie, Peninsula North
Day 7: National Moonah, Portsea
Day 8: (St Andrews Beach, Gunnamatta and West courses)
Day 9: fly to Sydney, New South Wales
Day 10: Newcastle (two hour drive), fly to Adelaide
Day 11: Royal Adelaide, fly to Melbourne, fly to NZ
Day 12: travel, Paraparaumu Beach
Day 13: travel, Cape Kidnappers
Day 14: Back to the free world  

Obviously you'll be exhausted by the end, and those hoping for a slower pace would need to spend 2 1/2 weeks here.

Tom Huckaby - you're gaining the day you lost at the end of the trip, so how is the two-day travel time at the start a logistical killer?

I've found during my short time in life that there are two kinds of people - the people who stand up and do things, regardless of what stands in their way; and the people who look for excuses.  Looks like most of you are in the latter category.

[THuckaby2]

Chris:

Ouch!  That was harsh.  Hey, I do a LOT as it is.    

Australia has always just seemed to be beyond my logistical reach, and I know I am not alone in this.  But anyway, the more I read here the sillier my views are seeming.  And that agenda sounds VERY good to me.

TH

[peter_p]

Maybe a US left coast GCAer could become a golf travel agent. Make one or two trips, get the right contacts...
They might even be able to rate for the world wide rankings.

[Brian Walshe]

Melbourne to LAX is 13.5 hrs
LAX to Melbourne is 14.5 hrs

The flights leave LAX around 11pm and arrive around 7am.  As Mike said, you get on the plane, sleep and wake up in Melbourne.

The airfare to Melbourne may be more expensive than say Ireland but that difference is more than recovered by the golf, food and accommodation being much cheaper when you get here.  Even with the A$ having strenghtened of late to US 73 cents it's still good value.


Brian

[Richard Chamberlain]

(Dr. Kildare.....the last thing Tom should ever be accused of is shameless plugging! He is merely trying to remind many here that two new, EAGERLY ANTICIPATED, courses will open in fall 2004....That is a service...not a plug...what part did you not understand?)

Mr Slapper,

I understand perfectly. However, I will correct you in that the course will be opening in Spring 2004 in our corner of the world.

I will also repeat that I am one of the many that are eagerly awaiting the opening of these two courses, its just that it seems every Aussie (and New Zealand) topic on GCA seems to skew off and discuss St A Beach, and Barny Dunes.
It's also not always Tom that does the skewing either, but I just think we can discuss Australian golf without providing this "service" to these new courses.

Hell, The Australian Open is about to begin on a brand new layout, Moonah Links....lets talk about that.

Mind you, it is only just down the road from St Andrews Beach....Doh !

[Matthew Delahunty]

Dr K,

The Aus Open does kick off tomorrow at Moonah Links. It's the first time in Australia that a tournament has been played on a purpose built stadium course. The Australian Golf Union part owns it and the tentative plans are to hold the Open there every two or three years if the venue is a success. The course is around 6800m long and will play tough. Designed by TWP it has drawn some criticism from the ranks on this site and elsewhere but the pros are reported to be happy with it and it was designed specifically to test them. It's been hot and windy in Melbourne this week - right now it's about 38 degrees celsius (100F) with a hot northerly breeze and those conditions will continue for the next 2 days. That'll make for high scores and don't be surprised if very few players break par for the week. I suppose we'll get a good idea of Thomson's design when play starts tomorrow.

For those people coming to Australia on a golf trip I would largely concur with Chris' suggestions, although I personally wouldn't like to cram that much golf into 2 weeks. If you come in summer 36 holes in a day is no problem (provided it isn't too hot) as most courses on the Sandbelt are within 15 mins drive of each other. Spend a few nights on the Mornington Peninsula as there are plenty of top courses down there (36 holes at Moonah Links, 72 holes at the National/Cape Schanck, the Dunes, Portsea, St Andrews' Beach coming soon, plus 4 or 5 others)

For those looking for a unique Australian experience then consider one of the country courses which play through the Australian bushland - they might not make any top 100 list but that shouldn't diminish the experience. Or have a round at Yarrambat Park in the late afternoon - it's a municipal course (about $US15 per round) on the outskirts of Melbourne where you can share the course with the kangaroos.

Travel time is really a minor issue. A 24 hour flight once every 2-3 years is not much time out of anyone's life. The extra cost of the airfare will be worth it as you'll save the difference on the cheaper accomodation, food and green fees.

[Brian Walshe]

There are a number of organisations that specialise in arranging holidays around the Sandbelt and Mornington Peninsula for overseas guests.  Shameless plug for a mob I have had experience with and found to be very professional,  www.golfselect.com.au

One last point about the trip from the US to Melbourne.  It really isn't that bad these days, I do it at least 4 times a year for work and with no smoking and in-seat screens for movies it's bearable.

Brian

[Andrew Summerell]

Slapper:

I don't want to be Mr. Downer here,

The funny thing is, one of our government minister's name is Mr Downer.

If you want to know about a large part of Alister MacKenzie's career, then playing many of the courses Chris Kane mentioned before is a must. Waiting until next Aussie summer (2004/2005) will allow you to play Barnbougles & st.A Beach.

BTW, if you do come down to play Royal Melbourne, try to make sure that you will be able to get a hit at both East & West. They often only have one open to visitors, & it seem to be the East more than the West. If you can only play one, play West, but preferably play both.

[Steve Lapper]

Chris Kane

    MAKE MY TEE TIMES NOW FOR THAT ROTA!

I am all over that rotation! Just further proof that OZ well rivals the Irish/Scottish armlock on US golfers. Oh how I miss the mellow Melbourne experience.

Dr. Kildare,

   I happily stand corrected for my forgetting to flip the seasons. I was stuck watching the toilet flush the wrong way!

   My main point was to note that Sr. Doak was only pointing out the addition of those likely to be special places. I'm sure you are tired of any pre-opening hype, but for we North Anericans, the promise of other new really fun courses by one of our favorites just gets us excited.

Save room for me in 2007 or sooner mates.

slapper

[Matthew Mollica]

Why is it that Australians never complain about travelling 24 hours to Europe / UK, where we get slaughtered on the exchange rate, while Americans winge about a flight a little over half that time, to a destination where they effectively gain a dollar for every three they spend?

If you guys are serious about golf, and you can read either of the posts by Chris Kane, Dela, or if you remember some of Paul Daley's words, then you have no excuse. Do yourselves a favor and get over here. How many times do you need to hear it?

Matthew

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Me thinks the young Huckaby may be trying to save the Irish economy. If we yanks discovered the golf, drinking and omg good looking, fun women too, we might never go back to Ireland.

[Tim_Weiman]

MatthewM:

I don't know any American who really cares about golf architecture who doubts the quality of Australian golf. Let's put that aside.

Now to your question: were I an Australian with the same interest in golf architecture, I would want to visit the UK & Ireland. As you suggest, I'd just have to accept the long travel time to get there.

Now imagine being an American living in New York or Boston. You can make it to Ireland on flights that last 6 hours or less. Thus, it is easy to go over for long weekends, as I did just a couple weeks ago and try to do 2-3 times per year.

That strikes me as the big difference: Ireland offers the possibility of frequent long weekends, where this isn't possible for Australia, even if you live on the US West Coast.

Now it is quite true that many people go to Scotland and Ireland for a couple weeks running around to see every course they can. So, you would be correct to point out the same drill can be done in Australia.

Nonetheless, I don't think one can deny there is a major difference in the logisitics. I know from travel to Hong Kong and Singapore (while living in LA) that it just isn't the same thing as New York - Shannon or Dublin.

Over time, logistics, convenience and expense matter if you are trying to attract large numbers of people.

P.S. It would be interesting to put this issue on hold and fast forward two years. At that point, how many Melbourne residents will be taking long weekends to play Barnbougle? What always amazed me being in London was how few Brits thought about long weekends up to St Andrews. It seemed like it always took Americans being in town to say "let's do it"....."we're so close, why not?".

[THuckaby2]

Peter Pittock and John Berhardt:

You two have unmasked for long-term career plans.  Now I just need an angel investor to make this happen....  

As for the rest, the fire is lit. Trips to Oz truly are more realistic than I thought.  I will likely be doing another overseas trip in 2005... hmmmm.....

TH

[Andrew Summerell]

Tim,

You talk about those living in Boston or NY. Don't forget that winter in Boston & NY is winter in The British Isles, while it's summer here in Australia.

How many people from Boston & NY take those long weekends you spoke of to Ireland & Scotland in the middle of winter.

[Tim_Weiman]

Andrew:

I go across almost every winter, but you are correct to suggest American travel to the UK & Ireland fluctuates seasonally with traffic during the winter far less. For instance, during the summer Continental Airlines has one flight from New York (Newark) each night to Dublin and one to Shannon. During the winter it becomes just one flight - NY to Dublin then a short hop over to Shannon.

I find the winter really nice in Ireland because it doesn't have the big crowds and the golfing weather still isn't too bad - 50-55 degrees F.

Jack Marr:

I have several Ballybunion friends who love winter holidays in Australia - the people, the climate and the golf.

My comments have certainly not been part of any effort to question the appeal of Australia; they are just to explain why thus far the travel of Americans - East or West Coast based - has been limited.

[Jack_Marr]

Tim

I wasn't responding directly to anything or taking a side on the debate. Just throwing in some observations.

Personally, I would like to visit Australia once. It's too hot for me there, really. But that's just me.

Also, Australians are going to sell their country much more vigorously and directly than most in Ireland, because they believe it's the greatest country in the world (nothing wrong with this). That attitude doesn't exist in Ireland. We love the country but recognise its faults.

[Danny Goss]

Jack,

What gives you the idea that it is hot here? The winters are cool and even cold ( but nowhere near as cold as say the east coast of the USA ie. no snow in the cities) but in the summer it can get hot ( but just as hot as say New York or Boston in summer). That is Melbourne.

If you want to go north it can be quite hot.

It seems there are a lot of excuses for not doing the trip from our American friends. Maybe, with so many Aussies here on this site willing to show you all the great golf here, you should all be looking for an excuse to make the trip.

After all how hard is it board a flight at LAX at 11.00pm and nod off to sleep and wake up 14 hours later in Melbourne?

Come on guys..........make an effort. Even George Dubya made it over a few weeks ago!

[Paul_Daley]

I guess it's all a matter of scale and preparedness to travel. Everything in the States is laid on, going outside one's comfort zone may not be appealing. In such a big country (but we're really only the same same size as the US) golfers and non-golfers, alike, think nothing of driving for 10-20 hours for a get away: golf or otherwise.

I still remember the looks of astonishment when arriving in London and casually mentioning I was taking a quiet drive up to St Andrews, Dornoch or Brora. The assumption was that I'd lost my marbles. They didn't say so, but it was just plastered all over their faces. Unlike the States with its many small States, Australia only has 5-6 States, plus a Territory or two. To travel between each requires a solid commitment

This whole argument may not be about US golfers not travelling to Down Under Australia, it may be more about a nation's unwillingness to accept that anything outside its own radar is important. But you guys are bright: I know that you know that Australian golf is world-class, but could it be that there is a bit of old-fashioned laziness at play? I don't know; only the guys who dream of coming here, who then turn around and don't come, know for sure.

One theory I have is that top-line golf in Australia is so ridiculously accessible, that US golfers downgrade its appeal. Doesn't everyone want to play Cypress P and Augusta and a few other top US courses, presicely, because they know they cannot, and are not welcome!

[Jack_Marr]

Danny

I should have qualified that I "think" it's too hot for me, but I could of course be wrong, and probably am.

I'm not making excuses for not going - I hope to go one day, and it may include golf.

Jack

[Tim_Weiman]

Danny Goss/Paul Daley:

Let me take one more shot it this topic for the last thing I want to do is denigrate golf in Australia or Australia itself for that matter!

My comments have mostly been directed at trying to explain behavior, specifically the willingness, or lack thereof, of American golfers to travel Down Under in large numbers.

In the final analysis, it does boil down to what we have been discussing: logistics, time, cost, etc. Those are usually factors that influence behavior, regardless of nationality, I think.

Looking at the American market, I don't have any data I can cite, but I would guess far more people who live in places like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati or Chicago go to play golf in Mrytle Beach each year than those who go over to the UK & Ireland. Time and expense are probably the factors driving this behavior - certainly not the quality of golf.

I'd also point out how few golfers I meet here in the Midwest have actually been to the Bandon Dunes Resort. Those that have taken my recommendation to go come back thrilled. But, trips to Myrtle (in the late winter/early spring) or up to Northern Michigan (in the summer) are far more common.

Then, too, there is the whole dessert environment (Arizona, Las Vegas, Palm Springs, etc. ) that attracts many golfers seeking to escape the frigid winter weather in Northern states.

Or take the Monterey Peninsula. I made my first visit more than twenty years ago, but still I don't meet that many people here in the Midwest who have done so.

Bottom line: the US market itself is quite large. There are very few people who actually make it to all the worthwhile spots. The UK & Ireland then comes as the next step, but truthfully only a very small number of people actually make it there more than a couple times.

Australia has certain things going for it: the quality of the golf; seasons that are counter to the US, a sense of adventure and by all accounts, a really fun place. With all that, something would have to explain the limited number of Americans who make the journey. I can't explain it any other way than to cite the factors noted previously.

But, okay. I'll take it out of my "five year plan" and move it up to the next year or two. You guys are right!

[Chris_Clouser]

Some hard numbers.

Airfare from Indianapolis to Melbourne: $2000
Airfare from Indianapolis to London: $700
Cost of gas to drive to Northern Michigan, Florida, South Carolina: under $100

If you consider housing and food are relatively the same (except that is almost nothing for me in Northern Michigan at the in-laws except for the constant nagging which makes me go play more golf) then is it any wonder why a lot of people in the Midwest don't go that far away.

I would love to go to Bandon, Monterey or somewhere like that, let alone dreaming about courses in the Heath, Sand Belt or the Links of Scotland but financially unless you are somewhat in the small crowd like at GCA then why would you.  If you don't realize the difference in the golf, then why would you pony up the money for a trip like that.  Heck we went to Philly this year and my wife wondered why I would go all the way out there to play or see courses like Rolling Green when we have a ton of courses around Indy that she thinks are more than servicable.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I highly recommend the trip, although I figured I would never make it either.  That was, until I got a call one morning from the secretary of the Australian Club Managers Association a few years ago asking if I would be willing to come all the way to Australia to give a few speeches to their group.  

While he couldn't pay any fees, he did agree to pick up the then $6000 airfare, so I could hardly let him wait to finish his sentence before saying yes!  AFter Syndey, I went over to Melbourne, so I got to play all the best courses there, too.  I also, in true Aussie style, made some quick friends with whom I still communicate occaisionally to this day!

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