[Mike Hendren]

I'm not Player fan, but his anti-apartheid stand is admirable.  Some years ago (I'm guessing 1950's), as a form of protest he wore trousers that had a black pant leg and white pant leg off the first tee at The Old Course, perhaps during a practice round.   Apparently, he was asked to change his trousers.

Mike

[Gary_Smith]

I bet few here have ever heard the name Sewsunker Segolum (or something like that)    He was a black golfer who Player sponsored all over the world many years ago in trying to find a place for him in the game. Player has done this with others as well.

Charlie Sifford was once asked who treated him the best on the PGA tour. His immediate answer....Gary Player. I think Elder has said the same thing.

[rgkeller]

"I bet few here have ever heard the name Sewsunker Segolum"

This isn't one of those "Sidd Finch" stories, is it?

[Bob_Huntley]

And Els - a member of a wealthy Afrikaner family, was in the playoff, not Player.

I am not quite sure of your knowledge of the politics of South Africa, but as I guessed your age incorrectly, I may well be teaching you to suck eggs in this case. Because Els is Afikaans, that  does not make him or his family de facto supporters of apartheid. My son-in-law in South Africa is Afrikaans and probably did a lot more for race relations in that country than Jesse Jackson! It is this sort of veiled inference that all Afrikaaners are racists that permeates the thought process here in the US. As an aside, I would really like to know the last time you sponsored a person of color to membership of your club, and indeed, whether you have a regular game with a person of mixed race. I'm sorry if I get a little hot under the collar here but I get somewhat tired of racial generalizations.

Gary Smith,

You were right on Sewsunker Segolum, he was very dark skinned but not an African, he was Indian. He won the Dutch Open. He played golf with his left hand below his right, rather like a shinty player. It was Player that lobbied the government of the time to allow him to play, an enormous breakthrough.

[frank_D]

lee elder was the first black american to play in the masters (1975) and on the ryder cup team (1979) - he won twelve tournaments on the pga and senior tours - there is no way to know how many more he could have won if allowed to play

i don't think his record alone determines his inclusion for consideration as a participant in whatever capacity on a US team - but i do feel he would have been a positive influence based on the fact that the EXPERIENCE from his perspective would have been a potential resource for the team

once such a resource is gone - its gone forever

as such i though the president's cup as just another vehicle for self-promotion used by each individual participant to his own end - why wasn't the match continued today (Monday) with each team fielding twelve men - because they all have to rush to their next endorsement deal and couldn't keep their private jets on hold

jesse owens defeated nazism in 1936 the instant he broke the first of four tapes in berlin (talk about in your house)

golf had at least symbolically had this chance to if not defeat certain images - at least put them behind it - and in this spirit it was not a draw with both sides sharing - but an ending with some still losing out

[Bob_Huntley]

I know that is probably politically incorrect to write this but not all Afro-Americans who have visited South Africa have been dearly loved or admired. In fact, the members of one field and track team were so arrogant about the locals that when competing against a white.... the crowd cheered the white.

[rgkeller]

And Els - a member of a wealthy Afrikaner family, was in the playoff, not Player.

I am not quite sure of your knowledge of the politics of South Africa, but as I guessed your age incorrectly, I may well be teaching you to suck eggs in this case. Because Els is Afikaans, that  does not make him or his family de facto supporters of apartheid. My son-in-law in South Africa is Afrikaans and probably did a lot more for race relations in that country than Jesse Jackson! It is this sort of veiled inference that all Afrikaaners are racists that permeates the thought process here in the US. As an aside, I would really like to know the last time you sponsored a person of color to membership of your club, and indeed, whether you have a regular game with a person of mixed race. I'm sorry if I get a little hot under the collar here but I get somewhat tired of racial generalizations.

Gary Smith,

You were right on Sewsunker Segolum, he was very dark skinned but not an African, he was Indian. He won the Dutch Open. He played golf with his left hand below his right, rather like a shinty player. It was Player that lobbied the government of the time to allow him to play, an enormous breakthrough.

I made no generalizations about Els or Afrikaaners. My question regarding the rooting allegiance of Black South Africans has everything to do with THEIR attitudes and little to do with the actions of Els or Afrikaaners or anyone else.

You seem anxious to get hot under the collar. Perhaps you should think a bit before you post.

[Bob_Huntley]

rgkeller,

Thank you for your advice on thinking before posting, I generally do. Somehow or other the bit about Els and his wealthy Afrikaaner family seemed, to me at least, somewhat dodgy. Was it necessary to make your point, that he was anything other than South African?

[rgkeller]

Well, since the Afrikaans ruled South Africa for many decades and since, by all reports, the blacks in South Africa were not too happy with their lot during that time, Els' Afrikaans background seemed appropriate to my question as to the rooting allegiance of the South African blacks in attendance at the President's Cup.

[Bob_Huntley]

rgkeller,

Not to flog a dead horse, but if you saw the last World Cup Rugby tournament held in South Africa, you would have seen South Africans of all colors rooting for their team. The team was make up was  predominently Afrikaans. Pre 1991 this well may not have been the case.

There is one interesting story concerning this theme of racial support. Gary Player has always received the plaudits of blacks in South Africa and never more so than when playing Tommy Bolt. Bolt who was a boor at best and an asshole at worst, treated his caddies and black spectators with utter disdain and contempt. His language was ripe with words that if uttered now, would have him deported.

[rgkeller]

So what would your answer be to my question, which was "For whom were the South African blacks rooting in the PC playoff between Woods and Els?"

[Bob_Huntley]

rgk,

I have just phoned my daughter, she said Els in a landslide.

Bob

[rgkeller]

Thanks

[Steve Lapper]

Rgkeller,

     What is clear (and I shall make a statement instead of a question so as not to confuse you) is that Els is considered somehwat of a national hero and a South African first. He has always shown pure class when asked about anything relating to the country's struggles with apartheid.

    You are entitled to your cynacism and opinions, but don't confuse the facts: Player, Price and Els all are not bigots nor mired in the awful history that was aprtheid Africa. More than I can say for many professional American golfers!

   

[Bob_Huntley]

rgkeller,

Thank you for your response.

To all:

I think it may be time to have a bit of a history lesson race in South Africa. The National Party in 1948 introduced the repellent system of Apartheid into the South African body politic. The classifications were Blankes and  Nie Blankes. White and non white. The non whites were further classified as Bantu, pure blooded Africans of tribal origin, Indian and Asiatics and at the bottom of the pole, Cape Coloured. people of mixed race.

The Bantu or Africans despised both Indians and Coloureds. Indians feared the former and exploited the latter. I would hazard a guess, and I am fearful of the consequences of this statement, that Tiger, being of mixed race was not necessarily
the icon some of us would suppose.

There is great hope in South Africa that all this will change and it was encouraging for me to hear of Els' local support.

[rgkeller]

Rgkeller,

     What is clear (and I shall make a statement instead of a question so as not to confuse you) is that Els is considered somehwat of a national hero and a South African first. He has always shown pure class when asked about anything relating to the country's struggles with apartheid.

    You are entitled to your cynacism and opinions, but don't confuse the facts: Player, Price and Els all are not bigots nor mired in the awful history that was aprtheid Africa. More than I can say for many professional American golfers!

   

You may search in this thread until the end of time and you will not find any accusation from me that Player, Price or Els are bigots.

The only person making accusations of bigotry in this thread is you.

[Steve Lapper]

Sadly, your assertion about Gary Player is almost certainly incorrect.

And Els - a member of a wealthy Afrikaner family, was in the playoff, not Player.

Rg,

    What part of insinuation don't you understand? Are you feeling a little defensive? I didn't accuse you of bigotry...only ignorance.

[rgkeller]

You obviously have a reading comprehension problem, probably exacerbated by your desperate need to occupy the high moral ground.

[simondavis]

rgkeller,

How could you, as a member of Garden City Golf Club, hold the high moral ground on this issue yourself?

[Bob_Huntley]

rgkeller,

Now that Simon Davis has raised the point, I was wondering why you never responded to my earlier question, namely "As an aside, I would really like to know the last time you sponsored a person of color to membership of your club, and indeed, whether you have a regular game with a person of mixed race."

I await your reply.



 

[HamiltonBHearst]

I am not sure why it is important whether someone on this site has sponsered a person of color to membership in a club.  I am also not sure why the racial makeup of someones regular game is a relevant topic.

All the people I know from Garden City are fine gentlemen and there is a review of the course on this site.  What's the big deal.  

[simondavis]

HamiltonBHearst,

I have no doubt that your friends at GCGC are all fine gentleman, and their membership criteria etc. is their own business.

But its hypocritical for rgkeller to make ill-considered comments about others stance on the apartheid issue, taking the high moral ground himself, when he's a member of a club which, at least on the face of it, discriminates against certain minorities in society.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I have know idea what the membership policies of GCGC are.  I do know that a few on this site who often take the "moral high ground" have played as guests at the club so I am sure the membership policies were acceptable to them.

I do not understand Mr. Huntley's  question though.  Why does it matter who a person has sponsered for membership or who they play with regularly.  

[Steve Lapper]

Rg,

    I hardly think you should accuse one of having poor reading comprehension. Shall we compare our verbal SAT scores? I think not.

    Instead I believe you were the type who had a bit of trouble with parts of American History. The moral high ground is not my perch, and obviously not yours. It belongs to those who see the benefit of promoting a fair and equal access to all institutions and meritocracy as the process for admission.

   My support for Lee Elder, my praise for the South African players heretofore mentioned, and my critiques of your shallow line of reasoning all are intended to help level the playing field, not continue to tilt it. Asking "who S.A. black people are rooting for and denying Gary Player's efforts at fighting apartheid" accomplishes little but furthering the continued racial rift that permeates our society.

   I don't begrudge you for your belonging to a private club that excludes an entire gender, non-white races and certain religions. That is your choice( and I might well defend your ability to make such choice) and you have voted with your feet. I rest my case.

PS.. Playing or Visiting as a guest does not imply acceptance, just enjoyment of the facilities. Membership is overt and affirmative...and speaks volumes.

[rgkeller]

No and no.

Although I am less certain about the latter since I do not make it a habit of asking my fellow golfers about their racial ancestry.

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