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Thomas_Brown

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2003, 10:42:49 PM »
Patrick Mucci - Oops, I meant #17 bunker in front.   It's always intimidated me.
#15 is also another deep bunker.
Tom

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2003, 10:15:21 AM »
Tom MacWood,
Pat
I have no idea how many cubic yards.

George had the figure a while back....if I'm not mistaken he was correcting your mistaken opinion at the time. Perhaps he will see this.

You are mistaken, and George wasn't correcting my opinion, as you erroneously state, on purpose

Slag
I know you aren't saying Pat doesn't have any answers...just questions. Every once in a while its healthy to see if Pat might share some of his knowledge with us...and sometimes he does...unfortunately this ain't one of them.

Since you've never played Yale and NGLA, by what criteria would you evaluate my answers ?

One only has to stand behind each green at NGLA to know that those complexes were manufactured.  Tees and bunkers tell their tale as well.

Do you think template holes exist in nature, or are replicas manufactured by man ?

Slag,

I asked a question, and before the party could respond, Tom MacWood asked me to answer the same question.

If you think Tom's motives were genuine, then you either haven't read the KK thread, or are naive in this matter. ;D

His concept of Yale's construction, that they just layed down a medium of muck on top of everything to let grass grow, tells you all you need to know about his understanding of what took place.  I'm sure he gleened this from his many visits to the golf course as Geoff Child's guest.

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2003, 10:50:34 AM »
Pat
The same criteria you use when you read Ran's review of Cape Breton or Sand Hills or The Golf Club. The same criteria we all use when read Shakespear or something on Japanese history or the Civil War.

I do think the template holes exist in nature.

Travis felt NGLA fell short because the template holes failed to match the qualities of the originals. Do you agree or disagree with Travis...and why?

Aren't the majority of tees and bunkers manufactured....even on the lowest of low profile designs?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2003, 11:34:33 AM »
Tom MacWood,
Pat
The same criteria you use when you read Ran's review of Cape Breton or Sand Hills or The Golf Club. The same criteria we all use when read Shakespear or something on Japanese history or the Civil War.

The above answer makes no sense.
      Tell me specifically, how would you evaluate my answer
      with respect to the 1st and 2nd green and tee at NGLA ?


I do think the template holes exist in nature.

So it's your contention that CBM and SR just happened to luck upon sites that contained all of these template holes, NGLA, Piping Rock, The Creek, Lido, Yale, etc., etc..
That's an interesting theory.  Is it based on your personal, detailed, on-site analysis of each of these sites ?
Have you ever played any of the above golf courses ?


Travis felt NGLA fell short because the template holes failed to match the qualities of the originals. Do you agree or disagree with Travis...and why?

I disagree, as I think CBM improved many of them.
    Why, because that's my assessment based on playing them
    What do you think ?  And Why ?  


Aren't the majority of tees and bunkers manufactured....even on the lowest of low profile designs?

No, not on the lowest of low profile designs.  One just has to play GCGC, PHCC, PD and SH to understand that.

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2003, 12:03:18 PM »
Pat you might find this interesting.

Regarding NGLA and earth movement, George wrote: “Guys: let me ad this bit of information:

Charlie Macdonald hired a local, one Mortimer Payne "and his team"" to do the actual construction of the course - now this is no plural here -

How much earth moving could Mort do??

We're not talking trucks and steamshovels - this started in 1907.

Payne did the work - Raynor apparently id the layout work and oversaw the construction so the work was done as Macdonald visualized .......... no different than today

Even into the 1920s they were using Mortimer Paine and "his team" - team meaning "horses, mules or whatever" - certainly there was hand laborers but that certainly wasn't large earth mvement.”


I almost forgot....Patrick surprisingly you wrote: “I have a very limited knowledge of construction, but my impaired vision tells me that a lot more than 10 % of NGLA was manufactured.”

Perhaps you haven't read Ran's reviews of those courses or maybe you never read a book or article unless you have first experienced it prior to digging...in that case it wouldn't make sense.

It is my contention that template holes exist in nature. I haven't played those courses...but I have played Old White, Camargo, St.Louis, Chicago and Shoreacres, and have seen the NGLA from a far. What does that have to do with the fact template holes exist in nature?

I think Travis made an interesting well reasoned argument.

What's PHCC and SH?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 12:07:47 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2003, 12:14:31 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Anyone who stands behind the first green and second tee complex and doesn't see the massive earth moving that took place is blind.  

Anyone that stands on the third tee and looks back at the second green and doesn't see the massive earth moving that took place is equally blind, and,

Anyone who examines the first tee and doesn't see the massive earthmoving that took place is blind as well.

One only has to stand behind each green to see the massive earth moving that took place.  But, you've never done that, so you have absolutely no frame of reference.

As I said earlier, by what method would you evaluate my answers if you've never seen the property in detail, and the answer is, you can't.  You can only try to take other statements and match them to my response, hoping to find conflict, without any personal evaluation on your part.

Jaka B had it right, you're just another monday morning douche bag.

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2003, 12:37:13 PM »
Pat
I have seen the property....perhaps not in detail (thats why I'm asking you)...and certainly not prior to construction. I guess you and George have a slight difference of opinion.

How would I evaluate your response, as an opinion coming from an experienced player of NGLA...albeit one with limited knowledge of contruction and impaired vision.


« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 12:49:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2003, 12:39:41 PM »
Where would some of you fellows familiar with Merion East, Oakmont, and Pine Valley place them on the mini-maxi scale?

Can't speak to Merion or PV, but Oakmont strikes me as neither!  :) If it's minimalist, it is in the sense of Tom Paul's second type like Shinnecock. It looks very natural, it utilizes many of the features of the terrain in the best way possible - fallaway greens, dramtically sloping greens, dramatically uphill & downhill holes. I don't see it as maximalist in any sense.

I'd say it's just plain great!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2003, 01:10:48 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I almost forgot....Patrick surprisingly you wrote: “I have a very limited knowledge of construction, but my impaired vision tells me that a lot more than 10 % of NGLA was manufactured.”

Your ability to evaluate my response would depend upon your ability to discern if I was being coy or candid with the above statement.

If I was being coy, or candid, how would YOU evaluate MY response ?  You've never played NGLA.  

Travis's opinion is his, for his reasons, which are unknown to us.  My opinion is based on my assessment, and I can only vouch for my opinion.

I would doubt, in the end, that George Bahto and I were far apart in our opinions regarding the manufacturing of the green sites and tees.

Since you haven't played NGLA, you can't address or evaluate Travis's contention, and neither can you evaluate my answers with respect to whether or not CBM improved upon the design
of the holes he copied.

You can only sit back and quote Travis, adding nothing original or substantive in the way of your own evaluation on the work CBM performed at NGLA.

In that context, your questions regarding my thoughts on NGLA are disengenuous, just like your thread on KK.

blasbe1

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2003, 01:48:12 PM »
The most "Maximalist" course that I've played has to be Whistling Straits (with the Dye course at Barefoot Resort a close second).  While WS has a fantastic collection of 3-pars, I found much of the mounding to feel artificial.  BTW, the absolutely worst green complex (worst designed and least enjoyable to play) that I have played is the 18th at WS, basically four seperate surfaces comprising a huge four leaf clover (very Disney).  

Even as the king Maximalist design (in my opinion) Dye is capable of Minimalist (or quasi Minimalist) expression as illustrated by his earlier work at the River Course.  

       

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2003, 02:08:36 PM »
Interesting discussion about how much earth was moved at NGLA or where manufacturing was done. As I said when I asked if anyone could figure that out I also said that without a topo map preconstruction something like that is basically unknowable--certainly in detail. Obviously some areas are obvious but other areas anything but!

Tom MacW:

Did you say George Bahto once mentioned the cubic yards of earth moving that was done at NGLA? That would be interesting and an odd statistic to have been kept back then. But even if a total was known how would anyone figure out where exactly it was all done?

Without a preconstruction topo the only way to figure out what exactly was manufactured in detail at NGLA would be to estimate it by eye unless Raynor, the engineer, kept specific notes of earthmoving and construction on each hole for some reason. Again, some area are patently obvious but others anything but!

Shinnecock, on the other hand, is basically a no brainer to figure out because we have the preconstruction topo map and although it's take a good deal of calculation one could go out there and shoot the grades of what's there now and compare those grades to the preconstruction topo map and that's the way to figure out exactly what was manufactured and where and what wasn't.

Without that preconstruction topo map at NGLA that just isn't possible though. There certainly are areas of obvious manufacturing such as the 2nd green and the 8th green. It isn't that hard standing out around those two greens, as an example, to estimate what was natural and preconstruction grade, slope and possibly contour. Not only can you look at greens like those ones you can pretty much tell how they were built up and how much. Frankly you can also look around those greens and see exactly where they got the fill to build them up and make them.

As for template holes--those architects felt they had to have a landform which vaguely matched the original. One can read from Macd himself that he probably would've built a Biarritz at NGLA but he couldn't find the landform for it (that could also mean he couldn't find it in a proper spot which involves the whole jigsaw puzzle of routing which I doubt many understand the complexity of what it take to do one anyway--and particularly when you start using template holes.

Even if he did find something he could work with for a biarritz what if it wasn't in the proper spot in the routing? The only way to get around that problem would probably be to base the entire routing around the biarritz! Now you can see what a real jigsaw puzzle routing really is particularly if you're trying to get fairly specific holes (template holes) in specific spots. This is the very thing that probably stopped Crump from finishing off the last four holes of PVGC for a couple of years. He basically constructed himself into a box--he had four more holes to go--he had a specific idea what they should be in theory but the land he had left obviously wasn't giving him what he wanted that easily.

Macdonald doing his course of maybe 4-6 template holes probably found those landforms which vaguely conformed or conformed enough to the protypes to construct those template holes and then designed his original holes around those templat holes afterwards!

And if Travis or anyone else thinks that Macd should have exactly copied the protypes from Europe at NGLA really doesn't understand the idea and concept of the template holes anyway. They were never supposed to be exact copies! That was never the point. The point was they were supposed to be copies in concept only that worked enough for the landform found that may have been vaguely similar.

The redan at NGLA does not look much of anything like the redan at North Berwick--although the general concept of the playability of both is relatively similar.

But if someone thinks they know how much earth was moved at NGLA or where exactly it was done in detail I'd sure like to find out how they think they know that! Again, some areas are pretty obvious but after that certainly not!

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2003, 02:28:58 PM »
Hey guys!

There is a thesis out there on the internet that I discovered a couple of months ago that seems timely in regards to this thread.  I urge everyone to take a look at it as it does a fairly nice job of explaining what is going on with this whole minimalist/maximalist/naturalist dichotomy that we always seem to be arguing about here.  Check it out, I think it will make for some nice discussion.

It's a pdf, so your computer will need acrobat.  Many props to Noah Demerest, the author.  Sounds like this is the kind of guy I want designing and building course.

FYI.  Up on your command line where is will say chapter01.......in order to view the next chapter you will need to change that to 02,03,04 etc.

Have fun reading!

http://www.demarests.org/noah/thesis/introduction.pdf

http://www.demarests.org/noah/thesis/chapter01.pdf
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2003, 02:30:37 PM »
Pat;

The second tee at NGLA is not the 2nd tee Macdonald built and used. To see where the tee for #2 was in his design just look in the basic area of what is now the back of the 1st green. I understand that area (back of the 1st green) had its present contours done by Karl Olsen.

What and how was manufactured on #2 seems pretty obvious to me if you look around the overall surrounding area of that hole. Basically a long bunker (the carry bunker) was cut into a broad running ridge and the green was built up in the back against the far side of the sloping grade of that ridge Obviously if you look way out at the surrounding area you can tell that originally was way too much fall for a green surface. The fill to build up and level off that green obviously came from the cuts of the surrouding bunkers mostly that enormous obsoleted bunker pit to the right of the green that we were taking about restoring recently. Anyone can tell with the way the overall natural grade of that land flows out there that that pit was not natural. Was the fairway bowl short and right of the green part of that cut and fill for the green? It's possibly to some extent but I don't think that much of it was if one analyzes the natural fall and flow of that ground up on the top of that ridge and how it flows out of the trees on the right of the hole and down towards the far right side of that hole but without a preconstruction topo I think that would be unknowable with any kind of certainty.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2003, 02:45:45 PM »
The 3rd hole? I think basically that's natural landform except the cutting of bunkering and for the fill to construct that massive green and berm behind it I think they used an enormous broad and relatively shallow cut operation of fill in that entire area all to the right of that green.

The redan? I think that was basically as is with a slightly built up area for the tee playing through a natural valley to a broad running ridge on a diagonal with the fill from the front and rear bunker used to raise up the front and rear side of the green on its diagonal and shape that green! If that ridge was less than that in shape or size they may have gotten more fill from app 20-40 yards directly behind the redan green--that looks as if it might be slightly and broadly scooped out. If they did get fill from there it's too bad because if they left that grade the way it might have been originally perhaps there would've been enough elevation for adding about 40 yards to #5 as Pat wants to do!  :)  But as it is now the fall and lower grade back there is way too low to get additional yardage without doing something that'd really look obnoxious.

III

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2003, 03:32:25 PM »
mdugger-

I have actually read that Thesis and your right it is pretty good.  I am actually about to start writing a thesis myself and I am going to do it on Golf Design I just have not narrowed it down yet.  

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2003, 06:27:36 PM »
TE
I thought George estimated the cubic yards...but I could be mistaken.

Travis was not critical because Macdonald didn't make exact copies....just the opposite. He was critical that he imitated the holes in the first place...he said it showed a lack of imagination/creativity. He also thought the holes were disapointing in comparison to the original models from a playing sense...he claimed they lacked the "vital attributes of their prototypes" (Sahara, Alps, Redan,..).


TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2003, 06:41:44 PM »
"TE
I thought George estimated the cubic yards...but I could be mistaken."

Tom MacW:

Maybe he did but again, without a preconstruction topo---(and I did once ask George if one ever existed and he said he didn't think so is my recollection)---I can't see how that's possible unless of course Raynor had some engineering records to that effect that've been preserved. But still I doubt it would be possible to determine what was done specifically unless they're hole drawings complete with "construction instructions" showing the details of what was to be done and how.

I'm aware that Travis was critical of NGLA, although I wasn't sure about what. I'll check "Scotland's Gift Golf" but my recollection is that Travis was also one who was an early consultant, or whatever, but MacD got rid of him fairly early.

As to whether template holes are not as good as the originals that's probably a wholly subjective judgement. The redans (North Berwick vs NGLA) are the only ones to compare (since NGLA was presumably the first copy) and in my opinion they look very different and play quite different although the same basic playablility concept certainly exists on both. All things considered I feel NGLA's is the better of the two.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2003, 08:26:49 PM »
TEPaul,

I'd agree with you, it would be difficult to calculate the cubic yards moved as I doubt they kept those type of records back then.

I also understood that part of the property was swamp, which would seem to indicate the need and use of substantial amounts of fill.

But, one only has to stand behind each green to see the evidence that the green complexes were manufactured.

Since when was Travis annointed with infallibility ?

Was Travis's criticism directed toward CBM for NGLA, or was it directed toward CBM for copying British Golf courses in keeping with his ongoing feud regarding British Golf ?
A feud which was further fueled by the British Press criticizing him.  Travis's remarks may have had nothing to do with NGLA, and like a woman scorned, he may have been transfering his anger and dislkes.  
Anybody who is married understands that. ;D

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2003, 09:20:07 PM »
Hey guys!

There is a thesis out there on the internet that I discovered a couple of months ago that seems timely in regards to this thread.  I urge everyone to take a look at it as it does a fairly nice job of explaining what is going on with this whole minimalist/maximalist/naturalist dichotomy that we always seem to be arguing about here.  Check it out, I think it will make for some nice discussion.

It's a pdf, so your computer will need acrobat.  Many props to Noah Demerest, the author.  Sounds like this is the kind of guy I want designing and building course.

FYI.  Up on your command line where is will say chapter01.......in order to view the next chapter you will need to change that to 02,03,04 etc.

Have fun reading!

http://www.demarests.org/noah/thesis/introduction.pdf

http://www.demarests.org/noah/thesis/chapter01.pdf


Dan Taylor & Tom Doak,

He delivers a master plan for the Cornell course. It is interesting.

Geoffrey,

You will see some similar problems as at Yale, however the original course is obviously not in the same "league" as Yale.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 09:25:48 PM by Mike_Sweeney »

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2003, 09:28:59 PM »
Pat
Neither Travis or Macdonald were infallible. The criticism was toward the course and not Macdonald. It was a very thoughtful and well written piece.

Travis had great respect for British golf courses and the British press was very respectful and supportive of Travis. I think you may have confused your history...Travis had some problems with some officials at Sandwich and later with the R&A...again the British press came to his defense.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 10:55:19 PM by Tom MacWood »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2003, 09:57:40 PM »
Can there be a more minimalist course than TOC?

I'd suggest that the definition of "maximalist" course has nothing to do with the cubic yards of earth moved as an abstract number, as the same number of men (plus a tanker truck of diesel fuel) can probably move 1000x as much earth as 100 years ago.  Its all about how extreme the architect's vision was in terms of the limitations of the day in terms of man hours of labor and typical cost of a project.  I'd bet that even a project like Kingsbarns is minimalist by that measure when compared with some of the golden age projects.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2003, 01:56:18 AM »
-I enjoyed the Cornell thesis, though I thought it bounced around quite a bit.  Perhaps, too big of a subject to present clearly.

-Which bunkers are not dug?
While playing RCD, look at some of the territory beyond the greens of #2 and #3.  Like I read recently on Sand Hills, the bunkers at RCD existed before golf did.
Of course, how many locations get blessed w/ that topography.

-TOC - The prototype for min.

While I don't regard Rustic Canyon as highly as some others on this site, I do enjoy it and feel it's a wonderfully min. course design.  La Purisima is very different from Rustic Canyon, but I think that might me a good min. candidate in So Cal too.


TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2003, 07:52:50 AM »
Tom MacWood said;

"Travis was not critical because Macdonald didn't make exact copies....just the opposite. He was critical that he imitated the holes in the first place...he said it showed a lack of imagination/creativity. He also thought the holes were disapointing in comparison to the original models from a playing sense...he claimed they lacked the "vital attributes of their prototypes" (Sahara, Alps, Redan,..)."

Tom MacW:

I think the whole subject of template holes is a fascinating one and ultimately good for golf architecture in some ways but maybe not all ways. It presents some fundamental questions about golf architecure—ie should reknowned, solid and/or famous holes be copied in the first place, how often should they be copied, how exactly should they be copied, how prevalent should they be, and finally how much potential originality should there or can there really be in golf architecture ultimately?

I doubt there ever was or ever could be any kind of consensus on this interesting subject and that alone is probably a good thing for golf architecture as it simply continues a facet of  golf architecture that’s even more important---that being the inspiring of diverse and subjective opinion and even controversialism about the entire subject of golf architecture---something I feel is one of the most important aspects and essences of golf architecture—period.

Personally, I feel C.B. Macdonald was right to do approximately 4-5 “copy” or template holes at NGLA from Europe. However, one should understand better where Macdonald was coming from in that early era and what he was reacting to. One assumes that it’s primarily true that he was repulsed by the state of golf architecture in America (“the very soul of golf shrieks”) when he conceived of the idea of building a course like NGLA that was very purposefully to have 18 good holes (the “ideal” golf course)---something that apparently no one felt had been done at that point in America. One should also understand better just how much Macdonald had a stake, training and basically a spiritual connection to golf in Europe (Scotland).

I seriously doubt what led Macdonald to copy a number of holes from Scotland  to whatever degree had anything to do with a lack of imagination for golf architecture on his part. It’s also important for us to realize better today just how central Macdonald was to the comprehensive transportation of golf to this country. He wasn’t just someone who became considered the “father of American golf architecture” because if one follows closely golf in those very early years one can see that Macdonald brought the game itself to America in a comprehensive way, its rules, its spirit, its organization and certainly the improvement of its architecture.

I think it’s a great thing that Macdonald did what he did at NGLA with his template holes from Europe. But one needs to understand better how he did that and why. I’m fairly certain that he never intended to exactly copy any of them in minute detail as some think he did or think he should have—or others should have. I think George Bahto is in complete agreement with that. I think Macdonald was only attempting to copy the basic strategic essences of those European holes and certainly recognized that landforms themselves put necessary limitations on exact duplication. Frankly it’s a good thing that he fully recognized that. I think Macdonald was merely into what I call “concept copies” which are basically the strategic recreation of a golf hole and not an exact duplication in minute detail.

To continue on doing those template holes at every course he did though, and certainly Raynor did after him and without him, is worthy of more question and perhaps even more critical analysis, in my book. The true answer to why they both did that obviously had much to do with the idea of “If you have a good thing going, continue to go with it”. This may’ve had as much to do with clubs and clients asking Macdonald and Raynor to do the basic hole production of NGLAs’ template holes simply because NGLA was considered the new hallmark of American architectural excellence.

The whole idea of template holes, though, combined with plasticine models quickly became a controversial subject and one can see that even those who originally did them such as MacKenzie and perhaps Tillinghast gave up on that modus operandi after a time apparently because it became obvious that some templates (or plasticine models) simply did not transpose or fit well on some landforms and some natural sites, particularly regarding the general or more distance surrounds.

It’s an interesting subject and continues to be. I feel that the whole subject continues the way it always has with some architects willing to do template holes and others very much resistant to it for fear of or because of the feeling it exhibits lack of imagination or originality.

Macdonald did have plenty to say, though, about the endless attempt at originality in golf architecture. In his chapter on architecture in “Scotland’s Gift Golf” he quoted Humphrey Repton;

“If it should appear that, instead of displaying new doctrines or furnishing novel ideas, this volume serves rather a new method to elucidate old established principles, and to confirm long received opinions, I can only plead in my excuse that true taste, in every art, consists more in adapting tried expedients to peculiar circumstances than in that inordinate thirst after novelty, the characteristic of uncultivated minds, which from the facility of inventing wild theories, without experience, are apt to suppose that taste is displayed by novelty, genius by innovation, and that every change must necessarily tend to improvement.”

And John La Farge;

….“if ‘an idea were an original one it is safe to say it would not be a good one’”.

And landscape architect Prince Puckler;

“Time is not able to bring forth new truths but only an unfolding of timeless truths.”

Lastly, it appears obvious that the whole idea of the template holes at NGLA was not at first the inspiration of Macdonald at all but the result of a London “Golf Illustrated” piece known as “Best Hole Discussion” about which holes from among hundreds of courses were the best. However, it’s obviously no coincidence that the holes that came out on top in that “discussion” were “Eden”, “Redan”, “Alps”, the “Road Hole” and the 14th at TOC!

Basically, Macdonald came up with the idea in 1897 to build an “ideal” golf course in America which necessarily included 18 excellent holes but not specifically including “template” holes---not at first anyway.

   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2003, 08:05:53 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2003, 01:20:07 PM »
TE
It appears Travis took his lead from the first great golf architects in the heathland, men like Colt and Fowler, in regards to copying famous holes--preferring to rely on his and their own creativity. And certainly Colt and Fowler were weaned on these holes and no doubt were greatly influenced by them.

Obviously Travis was intimately familiar with why Macdonald did what he did...he simply disagreed with that tactic. Ironically he was reforming GCGC at this time. Others who didn't prescribe to the reproduction of famous holes--Leeds at Myopia and Fownes at Oakmont. Wilson at Merion seem to go the Macdonald route (Macdonald consulted on the design) and Crump intitially may have considered copying, but evidently ulitimately did not (perhaps the influence of Colt).

I don't know too much about plasticine models--who did and who didn't use them. I think Fowler and Simpson were the most famous advocates. I also believe Macdonald used models. I don't believe MacKenzie was known to copy holes...although certainly he and Bobby Jones claimed they did at ANGC...that may be debatable.

I'm not great fan of Humphrey Repton as model for golf design; his theories remind me too much of RTJ, TFazio and modern Landscape Architecture influenced hyper-natural golf course design.
 
Regarding the best hole discussion, it was amazing how much diveregence of opinion there was....really no consensus.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2003, 01:21:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2003, 05:36:23 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I haven't confused my history, or the cast of characters.

With respect to Travis and the British Press,
Cornish and Whitten don't agree with you.
In their book, "The Architects of Golf", they state:

"Travis, unlike his contemporary C.B. MacDonald, often criticized British golf and in turn was not often treated kindly by the British Press."

Perhaps you're confused.