[SPDB]

That greenside bunker to the right of #3 green looks like the most devilish gathering/hungry bunker I've ever seen, especially as it is tucked behind a sandhill.

Love it.

[Aidan Bradley]

Craig and Jimmy.............

Thank you for the kind words, However, when you have a canvas to play with like TEC, it's not too difficult to create good images. As a visual person, I felt like I was in heaven. As a golfer I was very frustrated as time did not permit the opportunity to experience this wonderful golf course. There are sometimes in life when you stop for a minute, look around, and say to yourself "my God, I am lucky to be alive". I had a few of those moments at The European Club.

Aidan.

[JESII]

It seems to me that Mr. Ruddy is most bothered by the use of the term CON. I would be as well. Hopefully Tiger will (or already has) address this directly and preferably in private.

And it seems to me (based on the passage Mr. Ruddy quoted) that Mr. Bernhardt used "con" as a label for the European Club, not for Mr. Ruddy.

Surely there's a difference?

Welcome, Mr. Ruddy. I, for my part, hope that Mr. Bernhardt will address you directly and publicly.

Dan,

Surely you are correct about Mr. Bernhardt's intended target, but based on what I have heard about Mr. Ruddy and his affiliation with The European Club this is every bit as personal as a direct attack. There is a difference, but I would wager that it is substantially less in this instance than the standard GCA relationship with a project.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Criticism and opinions have their place, but who wouldn't get a tad upset when they were being dissed by someone who on one hand writes:  "There are far too many really great golfing experiences in Ireland to go there (TEC) again" and then writes: "It (TEC) is not top anything for me in Ireland, which is not a real deep market at the top".

 

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played TEC at least a dozen times.  The routing is brilliant.  I can't think of anytime that more than two holes in a row go in the same direction.  His use of mounding and bunkering intentionally tries to deceive the player as to distance.  The movement of the faiarways and greens make the course a study of the ground game.  I have played the course in both summer and late fall and except for late fall the courses is fast and firm and the ground game is important to master. He loved the site so much that he built two extra par threes.  The player gets to play twenty holes.  There are a couple all world holes.  Number seven is just splendid.  

The European Club is Pat's passion and his legacy to golf and to his family.  I could play it every day.

[Carlyle Rood]

Pat Ruddy:

Sometimes when reading a message on this board it is difficult to guess the tone of the author.  I'm pretty confident that you've exaggerated the intensity of John's comments.

Reading over the comments you've included, it merely seems to me that John doesn't perceive your course to be on the same echelon as many of the greatest golf courses in the world.  I'm also inferring that his expectations for the course were quite high--especially when considering the remarkable courses he has chosen to compare it to.  Obviously his experience failed to meet those lofty expectations.

If your sincere intent is to improve your golf course, then you'll benefit a great deal more by seeking out people like John than rebuking them.

Carlyle

[HamiltonBHearst]

Please send the plans for your next course to Mr. Bernhardt.  Obviously you are not one of the MFA's on this site.

[BCrosby]

Criticism and opinions have their place, but who wouldn't get a tad upset when they were being dissed by someone who on one hand writes:  "There are far too many really great golfing experiences in Ireland to go there (TEC) again" and then writes: "It (TEC) is not top anything for me in Ireland, which is not a real deep market at the top".

I'm not sure I understand what it is about Tiger's comments that are over the top. They sound quite modulated to me and I don't get why they should upset anyone.

BTW, this thread is among the most bizarre I've ever read at GCA. What's going on here? There's enough deference being doled out to make a movie star blush.

Tiger didn't like TEC. Didn't like it at all. Felt he was over-charged for the experience. People may disagree with him. But that's the way it goes sometimes. Making excuses to Pat Ruddy for Tiger's comments and/or setting Tiger up front of a GCA-wide firing squad are both very weird.

Hang in there Tiger.  

Bob

[Pat Ruddy]

C'mon Mr Crosby.
Let's not cry.
Firing squad?  What firing squad?
We're only expressing views like Good Ol boys do!
Pat Ruddy

[Ian Andrew]

Bob,

The architects take a lot of criticism on this site, some of it's justified some of it definately not. It tough to get your most personal project criticised when you think the comments are not justified or worse personal. Pat's mad at what he feels are attacks on him and his work. He's frustrated and has called him out. Tell me what could possibly be wrong with an architect calling out one of their critics?

Architects have to answer to criticism, so do writers who cover them in the media, why not writers in a discussion group. You want to sway the public opinion with this discussion group, now you have to face the "other" reality of a more public voice.

[Jack_Marr]

I would drive down to the European Club every day and play it, if my wife let me and I had enough golf balls. I don't know any Irish people who don't like it.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, Are you out of your F------ mind. No not Pat Mucci who hears that all the time. I mean Pat Ruddy. I did not make those comments to offend you or your business. I made them to the Members of this discussion group based on my opinion of the course relative to other highly visable courses in Ireland. This is a Discussion Group that allows for free discussion. If you were active on the site at that time. I would have in the spirit of a gentleman toned the comments down significantly. I hope this post of yours is the product of far to many pints one night and not going to be the tone and spirit of your future posts. I was  going to welcome you when I saw you joined the site because we as a group really enjoy the input and comments of professionals. However I played in an event that weekend and did not spend much time online. I assure you again, that to write in a negative way,even a very negative way about a higly visable course does not make it a bad course. It has to be a good course to be in the discussion. It is in the spirit of comparing it to others considered to be the same status as it. I  think you hype the course and still do. I do not think all this will get you one more round though. The pictures are beautiful and part of the beauty and joy so many with a love and passion for golf and golf architecture bring to this site. Welcome to the site. Cheers Tiger Oh Jack, I would too if I lived within 30 minutes of the course. However when I travel from the US there is usually a bigger target of places to play to chose from. I also am looking forward to Mr. Ruddy's courses in NW Ireland which Rich and others have spoken in glowing terms about.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Phew that was taxing to read all that after an early morning of buying minerals, morning of approving Go Zone bonds for Hurricane rebuilding projects in New Orleans and an afternoon of planning a fundraiser for the LSU golf team. The bar looks appealing but me thinks an hour at the gym is the better path. Pat, I do hope you read alot of posts and not just search your courses or me to discover how many good people are on here sharing information and thoughts about the world of golf architecture. I am a much better  man with a richer life for the people I have met and become friends with though GCA.

[Robert Thompson]

Since a number of Tiger's charges against the European Club were directed at me in a thread last year, I'll say I thought they were misguided, but I didn't think they were personal. However, he appears to have suggested the only reason the course garnered attention was due to Mr. Ruddy's efforts to promote it. How that is a bad thing, still baffles me. Mike Keiser surely hyped Bandon by making sure all the right people saw it. The same with Kingsbarns and Mark Parsinen.
If you build a course you believe in, wouldn't you want to promote it? What would you have preferred, Mr. Bernhardt?

I thought there were some majestic parts of the European Club and I'd have loved to have spoken to Pat about it when I was there last year (his flight got delayed in London). I thought the course was somewhat limited by its insistence at having slight fairways, which limited options, and by the 18th, which all in my group felt was a major let down. However, some elements, especially for a majority of the back nine, as well as the additional holes, were very well done.

By the way, Mr. Bernhardt, I'm glad you spent the day doing good works. Your hero cookie is in the mail. I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue Mr. Ruddy raises. It is like saying, "I kicked a dog today, but since I gave $10 to (insert charity name here), I guess it all comes out in the wash."

[Bob_Huntley]

Okay, okay, John Bernhardt had some harsh things to say about Pat Ruddy's creation. Pat took exception, as most of us would, when our pet project is labelled a "con."

What many of us here should remember, is that less than eighteen months ago, John was diagnosed with a most virulent cancer of the throat. In his view he wanted to beat it so that he could spend what was left of his life with his beautiful daughter, Katie.

He underwent the most aggressive treatment known that was certainly no picnic. During this time I am sure he has reflected on many things and one of the things that I know about him is his honesty and feelings for others.

Any distress that he caused Pat Ruddy was never malicious but an honest opinion of the product with which he encountered.

It is written that "blessed are the peacemakers", I ask both Pat and Tiger to smoke the pipe.

Bob

[Forrest Richardson]

Tim — What is meant by how "a links plays"?

A golf course knows no title. A golf course knows no official spot on the scale of course types. It simply is...or it isn't. Fun, enjoyable, sporty, likeable, a good time, etc.

We need to care less about devising decsiptions and more about the uality and interest.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim — What is meant by how "a links plays"?

Forrest,

Remember that I'm relaying an argument I've heard, not advancing it myself.  I think people have suggested that The European Club doesn't play firm and fast and doesn't invite the ground game.  Now, someone in this thread directly contradicted that argument, but I believe that was part of Mr. Bernhardt's criticism of TEC.  

[TEPaul]

Pat Ruddy:

For quite some time I've felt there is too much posturing toward consensus of opinion on this website. Personally, I don't like that, and apparently either do you.

Welcome to GOLFCCLUBATLAS.com.

[Pat Ruddy]

Hello Tiger
Nice to meet you in the open. Pity we didn’t do so earlier, as you suggest, or you might have ACTED like a gentleman then!  “Lo Lo”, in your own words.
Are you hinting that you are a gentleman?  Well, once a gentleman always a gentleman and it would be nice to see those words... “I’m sorry!”  I assure you that they would be accepted as a gentleman.
Language, man, language!   One should think before spouting. Weigh those words as though they were being prepared for the eyes of a judge.  As a trained man you know that.  You also know that the web is a very public place and that damage inflicted is much wider than a quiet discussion in the clubhouse.  
Am I out of my  “F---- mind”, you ask?  Not at all.    Of course, this is  a group allowing free discussion and let’s not stifle it now.   It is difficult to soften your oft stated view of The European Club .... it stinks, has done for years, hyped, no good, stay away rotten. Ring the bell so people can avoid The Leper Ruddy and his hellish pit!  That has been your stance.  Then you throw the final oil drenched rag on your fire .... its all a CON!
You hope I’ve had too many pints and am not talking from cold sober.
News for you, Lo Lo, is that I never drink!  I’m sober and not liking you until I hear an apology.  You don’t have to fall in love, just apologise for being such an extremely nasty and vindictive and destructive enemy of me and my golf course over so many years, and I assure you we stand a chance of being friends .... even if we continue to disagree on this or that and continue discussing things. Lo Lo.  
So, a course has to be a good one to be in the discussion group’s sights.  That’s a crump from the Tiger’s table.
Another crumb .... he says “Oh Jack, I would too if I lived within 30-minutes of the course.”  What did Jack say?  Here’s what Jack said ---” I would drive down to the European Club every day and play it, if my wife let me ........ ”
It seems like only yesterday that wild horses wouldn’t drag a Tiger back here!  Now he’d come every day.  For what?  To be tortured and disgusted or has he a memory of something good, something worth his time, here?
When were you here, anyway, Tiger?  Was it long ago and what happened to turn you this way.  You must have bad games elsewhere, too, but you don't vent in the same way about them.
Come on ... you still consider I hype the course.  Give me a few examples.  Where are the advertisements etc etc etc?   I know what goes on in the world of golf courses and I can face my maker happy in the knowledge that nobody with a links talked-of  as much as mine ohas ever done less to promote or hype it.  
I wanted a golf course of my own all my life, after 30-years of constant aiming and effort I got there, after another 20-years of unrelenting work I have kept it moving along, I still don’t feel it is perfect but I love it warts and all, and I don’t apologise for that.  And I don’t think that Tiger has earned the right to parade outside my door year-after-year harassing and haranguing and then calling me and my place a CON!  Then to be shocked when I say .... Excuse me, could you please stop that?
What would a gentleman do if Ruddy paraded outside the Bernhardt home or business in that way for years and then applied the term CON?  Think. Lo!  Lo!
A simple acknowledgement and apology can end it all and allow us to proceed to the next level and the next topic.  
C’mon Tiger, make a move and maybe make a friend of a stranger,
Pat Ruddy

[Scott Coan]

This is what make this forum so great...  

Down here in NZ we have a weekly golf show called the ING Golf Show.  I just finished watching it and lo-and-behold this weeks feature was The European Club with Pat Ruddy interviewed, taking us through his wonderful links.
 
To be able to turn around and chat with the same man is so very cool.

Welcome Pat!

Very interesting use of the railroad ties as replacement sod-walls in the bunkers.  Probably not everyone's cup of tea but I like how you went outside-the-box there.  Must save a heap in maintenance as well.

When I get to Ireland I will make it to your course!

Cheers
 

[Gary Daughters]

Pat Ruddy,

Thanks for chiming in.  Would only folks like Rees Jones do same...

I hope you'll stick around on the site to introduce and contribute to topics not related to your own work as guys like Tom Doak, Forrest Richardson, Mike Young, Jeff Brauer and Paul Cowley do.  That's when I'll start to take you seriously.

Just one thing.  Please park the overblown rhetoric ("scurrilous programme of vilification..." etc) and don't compound your error with insulting comebacks that suggest you're just doing some "good ol' boy" thing.  Most of us see through that and if you'll come across the pond, or stick your head out 'the hole again, we'll be happy to instruct you in the proper techniques of trash talk.

Sorry, one more thing.  Methinks thou doth protesteth too loudly.

[Dan Kelly]

What does "Lo Lo" mean?

[JESII]

Glenn,

The issue is Tiger called The European Club a "con". I think Pat Ruddy is justified in seeking an explanation for that. And Pat should be the one to determine when an apology has been given, not you or I.


Just a guess, but I think LoLo is a misinterpretation of of the internet slang lol[/i]. Just a guess.

[Bob_Huntley]

Will this counter-attack create a hesitancy on our group to offer up less than positive remarks on golf course architecture
of favored members of the clan? I hope not.

I have not been a fan of Tehama G.C. here in Carmel and I am not looking foward to the day when I see Clint.... and he asks me to make his day.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Bob

Not to worry.  You could take out Clint anytime and ayway you wanted too.  He's just a celluloid hard man.  You are a real one.

R

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