[John Kavanaugh]

I spose my angle is that I don't expect anything in return if I do a good turn.  

Sean,

When Jesus told the rich guy to give all his worldly possesion to the poor (the ole camel in the needle trick) he (Jesus) never mentioned what good that would do the poor....all the rewards would go straight to the rich guy...Charity is an amazingly self serving process.  That being said: I don't buy that this Muirfield model is for the good of the visitor...It is for the good of Muirfield.

[Mark Pearce]

How many exclusive clubs are there in the UK where visitors cannot play without being invited by a member as a matter of routine?  Very few.  Of traditional courses, I can't think of many - Swinley Forest is the only one that immediately springs to mind.  There are a few new money ones (Loch Lomond, Queenwood (sp?), Wisley) but only a few and those tend to operate on, shall we say, a more "American" model (very much higher entrance fee or debenture, high annual subs).

Even the most "exclusive" of the traditional clubs (Muirfield being at the head of the list) allow visitors at least some of the time and, as has been pointed out, take pride in allowing visiting players to enjoy the course.  There is a real buy in to the idea that these great courses are treasures and that allowing the discerning public to enjoy them is a good thing.  The situation in the States sounds frightful, IMHO.  Exclusivity based on wealth is, almost invariably in my experience, a bad thing.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

No one ever ask the income of a guest...exclusiivity is at most based soley on character.  I think the European model where money buys access anywhere is much more disgusting.

[Phil Benedict]

To those on the other side of the pond, don't you think the hospitality of private club members in the UK is an extension of the attitude large estate owners have traditionally had towards visitors?  Even before so many of these houses became part of the National Trust they were open to visitors, weren't they?  After all, one of the most famous scenes in English literature is Elizabeth Bennet meeting Darcy when she is touring Pemberly, which was a private home.  At least as depicted by Jane Austen, the sort of tour Lizzie and her aunt were taking was pretty commonplace.

And I think it goes back to the comment somebody made about Prestwick - that certain things (great golf courses and grand estates) are treasures that ought to be shared.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't large estates eventually become shared with the people because the heirs do not have the ability to pay property taxes.  Of course I saw Marie Antoinette this weekend and she not only shared her estate with the people...she lost her head over it. (sadly that scene never made the movie)

[Phil Benedict]

Don't large estates eventually become shared with the people because the heirs do not have the ability to pay property taxes.  Of course I saw Marie Antoinette this weekend and she not only shared her estate with the people...she lost her head over it. (sadly that scene never made the movie)

Many of the large estates became too expensive to keep up and were donated to the National Trust.  However, in Jane Austen's time this was not the case because land ownership - the source of the estate owners' wealth - was hardly taxed at all.  So the extent to which these estates were open to the public was entirely voluntary.  Call it noblesse oblige!

[David Stamm]

John, I agree with the comment on exclusivity. Having money doesn't mean you automatically have class and chracter, and , conversely, you don't have to have money to have class and character. I think if someone composes a letter (as what Muirfield requires) the club can decide by the sincerity and respectfulness of the language that they can then make a judgement call and go from there. Obviously, anyone can pull the wool over anyones eye, but I think if common sense was applied, it could work on a very limited basis. I'm not a member at any prestigious club, so it's easy for me to make a comment from the cheap seats,   but I think if I were a member at a revered club, I'd want golfers who respect and treasure the course to experience what I get to expereince all the time. I think that would in turn make me appreciate my club more and more by hearing visitors express their feelings about the course and perhaps point out some aspects of that course I had never seen or thought of before.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would say NO in spades then one stops and thinks these same clubs allow outings multiple times a year with the justification of revenues. However I think the outings are really just to allow a particular members business interests or personal charity to use the club under the justification of revenue enhancement.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

Exactly...That is why members invite guests, many, many times people we have never met who have an interest in the course.  I think it is hilarious that we have a group here with 1500 individuals that have almost unlimited access to every private course in this country and still the argument is being made that some evil force is lurking keeping people out.  How did those recent trip threads you started work out for you...

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I'd be all for unaccompanied play if I could be in charge of sending people home if I simply did not like how they presented themselves.

Would I make the cut?

I am biased in favor of tall people who always smile who attended Catholic institutions...I doubt if you would even pay.  I told my daughter last night that she could go to Boston College if she gets accepted and it fits what she really wants.  Do you know anybody..

Well, it looks like me Villanova degree might actually do me some good...

[John Kavanaugh]

Can you believe that a private course like Ballyneal opens up and already almost everyone I know has seen the place...It is not even a year yet.  There is not an access problem in this country.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd be all for unaccompanied play if I could be in charge of sending people home if I simply did not like how they presented themselves.

Would I make the cut?

I am biased in favor of tall people who always smile who attended Catholic institutions...I doubt if you would even pay.  I told my daughter last night that she could go to Boston College if she gets accepted and it fits what she really wants.  Do you know anybody..

Well, it looks like me Villanova degree might actually do me some good...

Wayne,

My daughter chose to skip her senior year of high school and told me last night that if she had stayed she probably would have gone to Villanova next year...I have no idea why either of you said that.

[Ash Towe]

A slight variation to the Muirfield model is one I experienced when visiting Australia.  The same method of getting a start time is used but you have to be from another state or an overseas visitor.  Also the times made available are all mid week.  Members are aware of these times and any inconvenience is minimal. The residence requirement works well in limiting the number of applications.

[Phil Benedict]

Can you believe that a private course like Ballyneal opens up and already almost everyone I know has seen the place...It is not even a year yet.  There is not an access problem in this country.

What about Augusta National or Seminole?  Those are pretty tough tickets, aren't they?

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

I haven't seen Ballyneal - so you're welcome for proving the "almost" part of that.

And dammit, I always smile and have never attended anything BUT Catholic instiutions... but sadly I have only 2 out of 3 on the requirements to meet your bias.



TH

ps - you are making a LOT of sense on this thread... and if this picture doesn't prove that access is possible damn near anywhere, nothing does.  Hopefully people will recognize where that was taken, even though I posted it just to prove I miss out on the "tall" part.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Can you believe that a private course like Ballyneal opens up and already almost everyone I know has seen the place...It is not even a year yet.  There is not an access problem in this country.

What about Augusta National or Seminole?  Those are pretty tough tickets, aren't they?

Mucci has played both...Have you ever read some of that guys stuff on here.

[Phil Benedict]

And I'm sure Mucci knows a member of both clubs or has a friend who knows a member.  I doubt that he sent these clubs a letter to gain access.  And these are hardly the only courses in the States where a member entree is required.

[David Stamm]

Hucks, I'm not good enough yet at guess this course, but I'll take a stab. Is it in the New York area?

[mike_malone]

 David,

    That is Winged Foot Flats.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes indeedy.  Think flying appendages.

And the point is this:  not all that many years ago, I too groused and griped about lack of access here in the USA and how the UK model was so much nicer and better for guys like me.  I belong to no private club and have many around me at which at least back then, I could never get a sniff.  It bugged me.

But the years have proven that JakaB is correct.  All things are possible if one is patient, nice, shows interest, etc.  I never would have believed that 15 years ago, but the truth has certainly borne out for me, as many here can attest.

That being said, of course one does need to be very careful and proper in how these things are arranged and how they happen.  One gets invited - he does not ask for invites. This site is NOT supposed to be golf course access.com, and Tommy and others have delineated the thinking and wisdom about that many times.  So this is a dangerous topic to even broach.

BUT... the point remains that in general, JakaB is right.  But so are the many others who have said that a UK-type system won't work / won't happen here.  It won't, for many reasons.  But that being said, JakaB does remain correct... all things do remain possible, and I'm a guy who sure as hell can attest to that.

But this does remain a tangent - I just wanted to post a picture that so makes me smile, and not because of the golf course at all!

[John Kavanaugh]

Phil,

How is Mucci different than you or I, sure he was an elite player at one time...maybe he earned his way on Seminole or ANGC.  This thread was started by a guy who attended Harvard...think he ever met any members or had opportunities.  What is keeping you from knowing a member...what is wrong with knowing a member...what makes you think you need to "know" a member to get an invite through one.  I have met quite a few people who have played ANGC because they have made efforts to lead charitable lives...I'm sure the same can be said for Seminole.  If you want to play tomorrow sorry...If you want to play in the future man up..I'm sorry if you have made choices in the past that will make it a tough road but it will just be that much sweeter when you get there.

[Phil Benedict]

Whether I play Augusta or Seminole or Cypress Point or any other super-exclusive course isn't going to affect me that much one way or another, although I would be thrilled at the opportunity to play any of these courses.  Last week a friend asked if I was interested in playing Pine Valley next year and I almost fell out of my golf cart at the suggestion.  My attitude is that if the opportunity presents itself, great; otherwise live your life.

When I go to Scotland I'll probably write the letter to Muirfield.  That's a pretty straightforward way to gain access to a great course.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil - that's a damn good attitude to have.  Just note re Muirfield, it doesn't even require the letter anymore... they have on-line internet booking!  Do a search, you'll find it...

TH

[David_Tepper]

John Kavanaugh -

I cannot disagree with your comment ("there is not an access problem in this country") more. In fact, I find it nonsensical.

I have been fortunate enough to play 25-30 of the top-100 ranked courses in GB&I (including multiple British Open venues) simply by driving to the course, walking into the pro shop and paying a green fee. Do you know of ANYONE who has accessed any of the top-100 private clubs in the U.S. in that fashion? Have you ever gained access to Shinnecock, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Southern Hills, Medinah, et. al. in that way?

Certainly, if you or I contacted our friends (or friends of our friends), we might be able to access a small number (nowhere near a majority) of the top private course in the U.S. But we both know that would involve multiple phone calls, e-mails and thank-you notes.

Your example of how many people have been able to access Ballyneal so far is a flawed. Ballyneal is a commercial venture that is allowing visitor play in order to promote the course to sell memberships. Do you really think it will be so easy to access Ballyneal once the memberships are fully subscribed?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

DT  

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Interestingly, I agree with both you and JK.  I just think you are making completely different points.

Is access to top courses easier in the UK?  Of course it is.  Your example is shared by many.

But can access occur here in the US?  Well, I'm living proof that it sure as hell can.  It just does take patience, luck, other strange forces.  But it surely can be done.  I've played two of the 5 courses you list and have zero doubt that if I wanted to, I could find a way to play the three others.  And I am a "member" of the inglorious Santa Teresa Men's Golf Club.

So the point isn't is access easy here or should it be so... the point is "is it a problem."  And it surely does depend on how one looks at it.  Again, 10-15 years ago I was at the forefront of the "USA sucks, why do I have to park my car next to SFGC every day with never a chance to play it" campaigners.  But things have obviously happened to change my mind... I only wish such wouldn't have been required for me to see the light.  Because what struck me along the way is this:  why did I feel as if I have some RIGHT to play private clubs anywhere?  They're private for a reason... if they want to keep a guy like me out, then that is their right and I have no reason to whine.  As much whining as I did back then.  

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