[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Not all of the classic era architects had the production output that would fit your characterizations.  Certainly Ross, with his amazing number of courses per year and the fairly well determined amount of time he spent on each individual site would result in the kind of methodology you seem to lump all of those guys in.  

Let's get a list together of total number of courses, by year if possible, of the top 10 architects of the classic era.  This should give a preliminary idea of amount of time on site.  I don't know how many courses Tillinghast, Thomas, Maxwell, Langford, Raynor, Thompson and others did in their careers.  I would venture to say that few if any did as few as Flynn.  He spent a lot of time on site, with a few exceptions, during and before construction.  He drew in exact detail and for the most part the courses were built exactly as drawn.  Having a crew of workers that worked with him on the majority of projects and construction foremen (Gordon and Lawrence) that worked on nearly all the projects made possible this method of operation.  Craig Disher's overlays of Flynn's drawings on aerial photographs prove this.

Here's Flynn's timeline:

TIMELINE: THE GOLF COURSES OF
WILLIAM S. FLYNN

1910

1911   Heartwellville (D, NLE)

1912   Merion GC East Course1912-1934 (C, RD, D) 99A

1913   Merion GC West Course (C, D)

1914

1915

1916   Doylestown (D)  
   
1917   CC-Harrisburg (D), Eagles Mere CC (RD 6, D12)

1918   Pine Valley (A, RD)

1919   Washington GCC (D)

1920   Lancaster (D), Westchester (C), Pocono Manor (RD 8, D 10) I9

1921   Pine Valley (C), Town and Country (AKA Woodmont)  (D-NLE), Columbia CC (RD)

1922   Bala GC (D, RD), Glen View (RD) 109, Monroe CC (D 9) 107, North Hills CC (RD)

1923   Kittansett (D), Atlantic City (RD 27), Brinton Lake (D) 114, Cascades (D) 119, Cherry Hills (D), Columbia (RD 2), Denver CC (RD 9), Friendship (RD 3), Yorktown CC Lake (D NLE) 717/1, Yorktown CC River (D NLE) 717/2, Philadelphia Electric (RD9, D9), Huntingdon Valley CC (RD 1)


1924    Burning Tree (C), Eagles Mere-New Course (D), Marble Hall (D, O) 125, Pepper Pike (D) 113, Sewells Point (D), Gulph Mills (A), Springhaven (RD) I10

1925   Cleveland Heights (D), Elyria (D), Manufacturers (D), Homestead (RD 18) 141, Ritz Carlton North (NB) 133, Ritz Carlton South (NB) 132, CC York (NB) 138

1926   Mill Road Farm (D NLE), Pine Meadow (D), Rolling Green (D), Opa Locka (D 18 NLE), Floranada South (D 18 NLE) 143, Manor (D 18/27), Rock Creek Park (D)

1927   Beaver Dam (RD 18), Philadelphia Country Club (D) 132, TCC-Brookline (D 11, RD 16) 148, The Creek (RD), Plymouth (PA) CC (D 9, RD 9)

1928   Lehigh (D), CC-VA James River (D), Springdale (D), Philadelphia Cricket Club (R 9), Huntingdon Valley (D 27), Sunnybrook CC (RD)

1929   Boca Raton South (D 18 NLE) 157, Boca Raton North (D 18 NLE) 158, Pine Valley (RD), Robert Cassatt (NV) 162, J.F. Manne (NV) 160

1930   Woodcrest (D), CC-Pepper Pike (D) 154, Indian Creek (D) 155, George Woodward (NV) 166

1931   Seaview-Pines (D 9), Shinnecock Hills (D) 156, Miami Beach Polo (NB) 167

1932  

1933

1934

1935  

1936    Normandy Shores (D) 172
 
1937   Plymouth CC (NC) (D 9), Pocantico Hills (D) 169, Sunnehanna (RD) 137

1938

1939

1940

1941 Pine Valley (RD)

1942

1943  

1944 US Naval Academy (D) 175

1945 Indian Spring (D NLE)

Not yet verified (dates and/or attribution):

Philmont North, East Potomac, Glen Head, Tuxedo Club, Whitemarsh Valley



Key

C   constructed
D   designed
NB      not built
NLE   no longer exists
O   owned
RD   redesigned
A   agronomic work
NV   not verified

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

Interesting info.  Mike suggests we are overglorifying the involvement of the old guys. I agree, knowing from Brad's book how difficult train travel was.  You suggest (correctly) that few of the old guys had a lot of courses going at one time - They built extensive portfolios over a long careers.  Of course, the same is true now.  Maybe the travel all balances out, or maybe they relied more on field people than we think.

I agree with Mike in most respects. Shoot me, but I think that the average golf club atlas participant thinks more of the nuances of design in general, and of some of their specific designs than they would have thought of their own selves......Right now, the amount of brain power that goes into modern designs - not only technically, but in terms of strategy and design features may be greater than the Golden Age.  That styles are different is one matter, owing to equipment of all kinds (CAD, Dozers, Clubs, Balls) But the thought is there.  God help us if it isn't - we have to be more sophisticated because our critics and marketplace is.

The old guys by necessity had to mail in plans -

MacKenzie never even saw some of the completed work in Austrailia that is hailed as his greatest.  He did a few days of routing and rerouting work, left some sketches and headed home by boat, which is even slower than by train.  Luckily, the Aussies don't seem as inclined to redo everything.

Colt and Allison worked on several continents.

Hey, Tillie was famous for differing styles, which I always attributed to his use of less controlled local crews than Ross.  And, how do we know that he didn't see two of everything when he drank?!  How do we know he wasn't drunk and really wanted four bunkers on that green, but only got two bunkers because he visually inspected and approved the design he saw on site?  His foreman may have just let it pass, knowing it was easier to build two bunkers than four.

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I agree with everything you said.  I'm sure if those dead guys woke up and heard some of the depth of analysis on here and otherwise, they'd have a good laugh.  Flynn would certainly be laughing at Mike Malone's ability to know what he was thinking when he was designing and therefore no changes should be made today.

However, my point is that not all of those guys should be painted with the same broad brushstrokes.  Flynn's total of 52 original designs is an awfully small output even with the dearth of work going on during the Depression from 1913 to 1945.  Also his method of work as regards drawings and design iterations on paper were rather unique as well.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
You definitely know more of Flynn than myself.  I do enjoy what I have seen of his work as much, if not more, than the other dead guys.  It may be he was on site more than some of the others but I would still wager there was much "mailing" going on.  Having a constrcution crew that traveled with him would certainly make a difference.  If he happened upon a job where he did use a local crew I would still assume that the plans had many areas that could be interpreted differently by different crews.
So many on this site think I am always condemning these dead guys...no....I am just trying to get thru some of the fluff....IMO they worked in Macro....not micro....

[PThomas]

not if I was paying him!

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Few will argue that the dead guys did more in macro than in micro as you say.  However, you have to admit that most of their best designs were the ones where they were on site the most.  Yes there are always exceptions but this is clearly the case for Ross and for many of the other architects as well.  A great construction crew and good supervision helped matters as well    

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Few will argue that the dead guys did more in macro than in micro as you say.  However, you have to admit that most of their best designs were the ones where they were on site the most.  Yes there are always exceptions but this is clearly the case for Ross and for many of the other architects as well.  A great construction crew and good supervision helped matters as well    

I agree......and that is my point for many of the dead guys.....THERE IS A LOT OF JUNK.....and so the myth continues in many cases....IMHO

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

I agree with everything you said.  I'm sure if those dead guys woke up and heard some of the depth of analysis on here and otherwise, they'd have a good laugh.  Flynn would certainly be laughing at Mike Malone's ability to know what he was thinking when he was designing and therefore no changes should be made today.

However, my point is that not all of those guys should be painted with the same broad brushstrokes.  Flynn's total of 52 original designs is an awfully small output even with the dearth of work going on during the Depression from 1913 to 1945.  Also his method of work as regards drawings and design iterations on paper were rather unique as well.

Wayne,

We are on board then.  Even looking at Flynn's busiest period, from 1916 (wasn't he an assistant to Wilson at Merion rather than the head honcho?) until 1931- in those 16 years he did about 40 courses - about 2.5 per year.  I know I can control the designs at that work level easily.

And the simple fact about Flynn (or Brauer) is that when you get three designs or more than you can handle, your associates do more on the ones with less potential.  I won't lie to ya!  If the budget, site or client aspiration is low, I don't need to be there as much. Projects like the Quarry do get my full attention.  

I gather it was that way for Flynn, and to other degrees, Ross and some of the busier guys of every generation.  As much as today's historians try to document every move of the famous guys, we have no way of knowing exactly how much field (or office) time was put in by the principal.  

A corrolary is could we tell?  Ross might very well have had a school play to attend and called out to his associate "Got to go, finish up the sixth at the XYZ club. I was thinking that it could be like a reverse of the ABC club's no. 2, but longer."  The associate would draw the plan, someone would build it, and way later, someone might declare it a great Ross hole, with him having all of three seconds of input.  And that expert, 90 years later (and with evolution, minor changes) would say he knew what Ross was thinking.  I tell ya, he was thinking of going to that school play, or getting together with Mrs. Ross later that night if he was human.


As the MacKenzie courses in Australia show, maybe we don't need to care.  His guys there carried the day.  I can name some examples from my own work where the quality of the project was in large part to a green as peas young assistant. If I went out in the field and saw him agonizing over every cranny of a bunker and they looked good, I know well enough to let him have at it!  Perhaps some of the genius of Merion's white faces was really a young Flynn, not Wilson. (Someone had to spread out those bedsheets)

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

Conceptually, the origin of Merion is clearly that of Wilson and his committee.  However, the intra-hole designing up was done by Fred Pickering (Flynn's brother-in-law).  You'd be amazed at the changes between 1912 and 1916 and then 1916 to 1922 with lesser changes ongoing till the early 1940s except for the redesigned 1st hole prior to the 1930 Amateur.  Pickering was sacked during the 1913 construction of the West Course and construction of the West fell to Flynn.  Most of the changes to the course are attributable to Flynn under Wilson's oversight and exectued with Joe Valentine.

How much of the design details were directed by the architect and how much were designed by the construction crews?  Early on I think a lot was done by the head of construction.  Flynn took a different approach and designed everything himself and made certain the course was built to his plans.  Did others influence the final product?  Of course.  But once Flynn decided on the final iteration, it was not allowed to deviate.

Ross, MacKenzie and others often operated under a different model.

[Tom_Doak]

Certainly this is a question I am wrestling with.

This year I have

a)  attended the openings of three new courses (Tumble Creek, Sebonack today and Ballyneal in two weeks)

b)  made multiple construction visits to three courses underway (Bay of Dreams, Rock Creek, and The Renaissance Club at Archerfield)

c)  completed routing plans for three new courses, two of which will start next year (in Bend, Oregon and in the Napa valley)

d)  gone to look at four sites which we may work on in the future, plus a couple which we won't work on,

e)  overseen the restoration of three holes at SFGC, a new green at Barrington Hills, and made consulting visits to Garden City and Chicago Golf Club, AND

f)  gone out of my way to see a handful of courses by other designers.

Philip Young is dead right, that takes a toll on somebody.  And then I look at Jack Nicklaus working on 30 courses at age 66 and I just can't imagine it.

In some weak moments, I wonder why don't I just work like Dr. MacKenzie?  He was comfortable with getting his routing just right and making a few sketches of greens to be and then setting off by steamship and leaving the details to Hunter or Maxwell or Fleming or Russell and Morcom, and it seems to have worked well for him.  And I am confident that several of my associates could follow up just as well.

Maybe someday I'll relax and do it that way.  But for now, I still have fun getting out on site and making construction visits and playing around in the dirt and sleeping on my decisions, and knowing that I did everything I could to make the course as good as I could.  And when I go back to play them, I don't ever look and think geez, it's too bad Jim didn't put a little contour in front of that green -- and to me that's a world of difference.

Besides, two years ago I authorized Jim to shoot me if we ever started sending digital pictures back and forth in lieu of site visits, and I believe he would follow through!

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