Adam Clayman,

In what context are you asking those questions?
The topic is Dismal River... designed by Nicklaus... referred to as difficult in some posts... Are you implying that there is not the least little dig at Nicklaus in your previous post?

I have read every post again and when I come to yours I find no other way to interpret your "questions"

Apologies if I am being close-minded.

Guys:

For all of you out there who presume to think that Ward believes Dismal River is better than Ballyneal BEFORE -- REPEAT -- BEFORE -- I have said anything on the subject is indeed barking up the wrong tree.

I will get to Ballyneal but the focus of THIS THREAD is Dismal River. Got it.

Allow me to answer each of the other replies that have been made -- pardon me for the delay -- I was traveling and spent the greater part of yesterday at the grand opening of Sebonack on the Island.

George:

The distances and angles are a bit different for a range of holes. And that is what makes Dismal River so special to play. Let me point out that when people play tees they can't handle you then get all the bitching and moaning from people who should have accepted their own limitations and adjusted accordingly.

The tip tees George, as you well know, are not for people looking for a quick and easy joy ride when they don't have the driving skills to handle it. No different than having people stay nearer to the bunny slopes and then decide it's better to handle the double diamond slopes.

Dismal River puts appropriate amount of pressure on the player at the tee sites. You have to hit the ball a sufficient distance AND shape the shot accordingly.

Dismal River is no doubt a demanding course -- but so is Oakmont, Winged Foot West, Bethpage Black and The Ocean Course at Kiawah. All would make my top 100 and so would Dismal River if / when the 13th hole situation is sorted out. The key thing to remember is that I see the course as being quite fair -- albeit taxing. However, when people with pop-gun games decide to play from the big-game hunter tees the invariable result is that they will be eaten alive.

Geoff:

In a word -- Dismal River has plenty of uneven lies. I can go through each hole and itemize where they are. The thing to keep in mind is that Jack and his creative team have not added severe slope where it doesn't fit.

Give you a clear example -- on the dog-leg right downhill par-5 of 600+ yards. I nailed a tee shot and had roughly 240 yards to the target. I was left with a downhill falling away stance with a four-iron. I could hit the ball cleanly but because of the slope and the other design elements between me and the hole I HAD to think especially hard about what the stance / lie would do. In sum -- the hole didn't simply surrender because of the tee shot. You have a number of other situations on the course where this happens. The dog-leg left uphill par-5 for the approach 12th hole is another example.

The Nicklaus team is well aware of how to influence the play of a hole by allowing the natural characteristics of the hole come front and center. Dismal River has those elements in a number of places.

Tom H:

There's plenty of fun at Dismal River. I had it in spades. I simply opined that people who bitch and moan about a course being TOO TOUGH likely have played from the wrong tees. As a result their "SELF INTEREST" becomes the general interest they write about.

There are a number of holes at DR where the player is given a range of quality options -- you have to pick the right one for YOUR GAME and then execute accordingly. That's both fun and challenging at the same time.

Steve L:

Yes, I have played Sand Hills -- did it soon after it opened and played 45 holes in one day from the back tees. As anyone who has played with me likely knows I generally try to play a course from the max.

The wind that day was in the 10-20 mph range. In order to give you an idea -- I hit driver / 5-iron into the 18th because the wind picked up a good deal on the two times I played that hole.

Steve, I could not include Sand Hills on this trip because of a vey hectic schedule -- landed in Denver on 8/15 and played in five states (Colorado, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana and Idado) total of 2,500 miles in just over seven days on a total of ten courses and left on a red-eye on 8/23 and then went to the grand opening event at Sebonack yesterday. As you can see just a bit on the run.

Please don't misunderstand me on my comments. I love Sand Hills but there are way too many people here on this site that think lower of Dismal River simply because Jacks' hand is involved.

John K:

Hold the phone partner. I have not uttered one word on Ballyneal and you then go off half-crocked on Ward being enamored with sheer difficulty and blah, blah, blah.

This is sheer bull and frankly gall on your part.

John -- how bout you wait for ME to INSERT MY OWN WORDS into MY MOUTH before telling me what I am thinking about another course that is not now being the main focus of this thread.

I actually played both courses and can present what I see on both. You have played one course and when I have the time I'll be happy to provide as much detail on that one as I have done here. Just give me the opportunity to do so before opining the usual tired malarkey that Ward likes this or doesn't like this.

One last thing -- Jack's comments were meant for those fools. idiots, clowns (get my drift) who play the wrong tees and then proceed to get their butts beaten to a pulp. If people thoroughly -- repeat the word -- UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN GAME they can enjoy Dismal River.

Matt,
"I believe it will be a clear "must play" when in the area"

Is that a compliment? I was in the greater Mullen area but once and it was because I had flown 900 miles and driven 4.5 hours to see Sand Hills, which I would classify simply as "must play in one's lifetime". Do you think DR is of the same category? Do you think it ever would have been built without Sand Hills? If no, don't you think the comparisons are warranted?

Also, I find your reference to yourself in the third person amusing. Very Rickey Hendersonesque...

Just for fun a few days ago, I googled "Hamilton B. Hearst."  Nothing.  

Then remembering Hamilton referred to his brother Livingston, I googled "Livingston Hearst."  Nothing.  

I wonder if "Hammy" has been having a lot of fun with us here??  (If so, I think it's quite funny.)

Voytek, I just googled him again, and got the same result as before.  Nada.  Like you say, your google is better than mine...

Try Ron Mexico or Mark Twain.

Geez, You guys are as bad as the guy who contacted me trying to get access at one of my clubs.  I had to remove my name from GHIN.  

Thankfully, the social register is not on-line.  I will not be pestered into leaving this site like you have done to other prominent people like Ken Langone and others.

John:

You need to take a much more humble point of view before lecturing me about my comments. I'm more than eager to defend my positions but allow me to take a position before harranging me about one that doesn't exist yet.

You are the guy who throws forward the idea that only sheer difficult courses are the ones that float my boat. John -- I've heard this nonsense many times before here on GCA and I thought you would be a bit more smarter than going down that lonely and wrong road. I have inclued numerous golf preferences of mine for clubs that are not particularly long or difficult. Unfortunately, you need to realize that there are people on this site who constantly thumb their noses at anything Jack Nicklaus has done and likely that comes from their own ignorance or the lack of the quality courses they have played that his design and team has created in the last several years. There is also an ingrained bias against certain designers on this site and those preferred.

I need not remind you that being connected to a club can often tilt / sway, call it when one may, to a particular viewpoint. The issue on this thread is Dismal River -- not Ballyneal. It's also a layout you have not personally played thus far -- I have. I will opine on Ballyneal sometime this weekend but for now the focus is on Dismal River as it should be.

John -- I stick to my argument about playing from the correct tees. Let's take the example you offered -- that type of player will have issues because the totality of their game is lacking. Simply hitting the ball a long ways does not render Dismal River meaningless or weak. Quite the contrary, you need to shape shots accordingly when called upon and the high degree of quality approach play is also front and center throughout the round. Ditto the talents you need on the greens which are uniquely "sectionalized."

You make the assumption that no wind will be present which is a stretch on your part -- ditto the idea that such a strong player will always find the short grass -- even from the markers at mid-length. That also doesn't happen on command.

Too many players think that if they play the back tees at their home club or ones in their neck of the woods that they easily do the same at a course of the quality of DR. That is not the case -- ditto when playing the likes of Oakmont, WF / West, BB and The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

Too many of these types of players erroneously believe they have the firepower to handle such courses and again many do not. One would surmise from such people that 300+ yard drives are a routine item and from my vantage point that's also a big time stretch.

Ben D:

No, the creation of DR could not have been possible without the success of Sand Hills. No doubt the success of Sand Hills paved the way for what will come down the line and having been the original will always be a point in the favor of Sand Hills.

The folks at DR have seen what Sand Hills has provided and wish to follow that route -- albeit in a slightly different direction, design elements and membership focus.

I stand by what i said -- if one travels to the region I would place DR as a "must play." The Nicklaus design is extremely well thoughout and the overall routing brings into play a dimension of his continuing architectural evolution that goes beyond many of his even most recent works (save for Sebonack which I have walked but not played thus far and which is co-created course with Tom Doak).

Ben, I say "must play" as a compliment. Let me put it this way I would return and play the course if the time and moment arises. I also see the sand hills region as one that will bring forward as many as a half a dozen more layouts -- DR will create a second 18 to the original layout there now. Will all of them be of superior quality -- that's hard to say with any certainty.

The genesis of Sand Hills and Dismal River makes for an interesting discussion. No doubt Sand Hills is a great golf course and a superb creation from C&C. However, Dismal River is not some sort of "old Nicklaus" layout that many of the so-called "experts" here on GCA would pan as a layout they would easily skip. DR offers a swath of design items that Nicklaus and his creative team have added -- the unique par-3 10th is just one example that leaps immediately to mind.

Ben, for what it's worth, I have played a good sampling of what Jack Nicklaus has designed and his desire to create a layout in the backyard of Sand Hills will be seen as some as nothing more than a cheap imitation trick. I would strongly refute that because the layout at DR provides both a tremendous challenge and design quality that goes in a different but yet special direction. Those who would opt only to play Sand Hills would leave themselves vulnerable to the point that their architectural education is a bit removed from being complete.

The final three holes are analyzed ...

16th hole / 427 yards / par-4

Quality hole that offers two unique tee pads on this f0g-leg right hole. The "interior" tee provides for a more elevated tee pad and one that accentuate the turning point of the hole. Here the player must decide how much risk to take with the tee ball. There is an interior bunker on the corner and failure to hit a solid drive can flirt with it.

The "exterior" tee provides a much more different look. Here you much less of a turn but the same bunker is still in play.
The green is a bit more approachable from all aspects than other targets at DR. A decent hole to pick up a stroke and it's 16 handicap is indeed accurate for that purpose.

17th hole / 462 yards / par-4

Unlike the 16th -- the 17th turns left. A much more stiffer turning point in the drive zone and the prevailing wind is often coming in from the left and makes for a right-to-left tee shot (the optimum play) a much more demanding chore. I tried to cut-off too much of the turn and landed in the high grass that extended beyond the bunkers that guard the corner. I could only wedge back out to the fairway.

One doesn't need to cut the corner but simply favor the center position of the fairway. Unlike the 16th hole -- the green complex at #17 is a bit more demanding as the green includes a fall of to the sides of the target. The back left is where it was when I played and it's a strong position to get close to with the approach. Still, the hole is a the 14 handicap hole -- put it on another course and it would be in the top six at minimum.

18th hole / 591 yards / par-5

Superb closer because unlike so many par-5 type holes this one demands close attention on all your shots. A big tee shot will not make the hole surrender.

There are two alternate tees here just as you found at the 16th. The regular tip tee is nearer to the 17th green and much lower than the alternate "tiger" tee which is a bit more elevated and located back in a somewhat canyon-like environment.

The two tees provide roughly two different angles and lengths. The lower championship tee makes the hole play a bit longer and since the hole is entirely uphill it does put pressure to hit a solid ball. The prevailing wind is also in your face and that adds to the dilemma when playing it.

There is a huge natural waste area to the left. It behooves the player to get a lucky break to land completely in the sand area and not get caught up in the sage brush items that dot the landscape. In old Nicklaus design layouts such items would have been removed and the entire area would have offered a "clean / manicured" look.

The second shot narrows the fairway down and the best play is out to the right to offer a look at a putting surface that sits below the fairway but can still provide a glimpse at the top half of the flagstick.

The further you play left will leave a blind shot to a green that has a wave-like effect. When the pin is cut tight to the front you need to know the precise distance and have the proper spin to stay close.

The 18th at DR brings you home in fine fashion. You need to execute all the way throughout the hole and it will offer a fine reward but never ever simply giving the treasure away without proper care shown by the player.

George:

Such a player could play a mix bag of tee boxes as called upon. I've seen such players do such a thing and it works quite well.

Geoff, to my unitiated eye, the fariways appear to naturally follow the form of the land.  It was pretty easy to follow the natural rolls from right to left across the fairway.  The lies matched the land and I thought the lies were very natural.

George, I am a 15 and played the middle tees - 6650.  I struggled the first round but shot below my handicap on the second round which included missing the green in regulation four times with wedges.

Thanks Mike -

I look forward to seeing DR some day.

Matt:

Having seen both courses, do you think that elements of Dismal River are influenced by our collaboration at Sebonack?  Even though they did the grand openings at about the same time, nearly all of Sebonack was built before any earth was turned at Dismal River.

Matt, thank you for this most well done discussion of another highly anticipated course. I like your attempt to not get into a which is better between the three great courses in the area.

And I apologize for my role in creating a situation where you are being pressured to compare.