Eric - gotcha - my bad - somehow missed it's BT you're referring to re not being worth the return trip if it were the only one.  I can get that - it's not on the ocean, not all that "different" from many courses.  The others are.

TH

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

To whom do you refer?  Not me, I hope....

TH

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 17, 2006, 05:44:17 PM

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

To whom do you refer?  Not me, I hope....

TH

Huck,

Considering the ocean is not in play at either Bandon or Pacific Dunes and taking into account the size of the ocean why does it matter if those two courses are a thousand yards closer than Bandon Trails when saying a course is on the ocean or not.  

My friend...I'm glad you are not pissed at me booting you yesterday.

Big difference - Bandon Dunes course green fees - $$$$.  Highlands Links green fees - $.

Back to BT.  I don't like it as much as PD or BD, but it's far better than a 'good resort course'.  

I'd like somebody that's played BT and Hidden Creek (NJ) to compare and contrast the two.  I've played them each, but only once, so I don't think I'm qualified.  But I will say that I felt like I was in NJ on a couple of BT's holes.  (THIS IS NOT A BAD THING!)

Bill - of course JakaB generally is alll hat and no cattle - he intends to be - but in this case, he's correct.

There's a difference between having the ocean actually in play and hitting it over cliffs onto the cliffedge, and you as a former Santa Barbaran should know that.  Contrast the thrill and inspiration one gets at Cypress Point 15-16-17 or Pebble 7 or 18 with any of those holes at Pacific Dunes.... Oh sure, at the very bottom line a penalty stroke is a penalty stroke...But at least for me, the thought of the ball actually going perklunk just gives more inspiration.  Being that much closer to the actual water is just really neat.  This is no huge knock on PD - it's not that big of a deal - but when he says the ocean is not in play there, he's correct.  The cliffs are, maybe the beach is (although it takes one hell of an awful shot to get it down to the sand), but the ocean is not.

And as for a greater golf experience, I will cite Pebble Beach and be very confident in that assessment.  But then again I have never paid $500 to play there, and never will. But careful basing this on price... before too long the two courses will be very comparable.  Count on it.

TH

Paul - have you followed the increases since each course opened?

it's not a large stretch at all to think that such won't continue, especially now that PD achieved its first #1 ranking... when the 4th course comes, well...

Perhaps I ought not to be so pessimistic, but want to bet against PD charging over $300 by this time next year?  $500 in two-three years?

TH

Bill, lets get back to the article. What is a decent resort course? I am certainly not a David Kid fan and I will flatly state Bandon Dunes is not a decent resort course either. It is a top line resort course as is Bandon Trails. America is full of decent resort courses and many of them are in Arizona, Palm Springs and Florida. That is all you can say about them. Bandon trails stands head and shoulders above them. C&C's course at Barton Creek is much closer to a decent resort course type comment. I am amazed any responsible writer could lump any course in at Bandon without in fact slmaing the whole resort golf industry. I also left out the hundreds of decent resort courses in the Midwest which are even closer to having that as an accurate description.

Bill - of course JakaB generally is alll hat and no cattle - he intends to be - but in this case, he's correct.

There's a difference between having the ocean actually in play and hitting it over cliffs onto the cliffedge, and you as a former Santa Barbaran should know that.  Contrast the thrill and inspiration one gets at Cypress Point 15-16-17 or Pebble 7 or 18 with any of those holes at Pacific Dunes.... Oh sure, at the very bottom line a penalty stroke is a penalty stroke...But at least for me, the thought of the ball actually going perklunk just gives more inspiration.  Being that much closer to the actual water is just really neat.  This is no huge knock on PD - it's not that big of a deal - but when he says the ocean is not in play there, he's correct.  The cliffs are, maybe the beach is (although it takes one hell of an awful shot to get it down to the sand), but the ocean is not.

And as for a greater golf experience, I will cite Pebble Beach and be very confident in that assessment.  But then again I have never paid $500 to play there, and never will. But careful basing this on price... before too long the two courses will be very comparable.  Count on it.

TH

Huck, there really aren't any cool coves or other opportunities to play ACROSS the ocean at either PD or BD. But the feeling of standing on the 4th tee with the fear of a slice going down the cliffs is palpable, and so is the fear of a dreaded pull-hook into the wind at #11.

I'm afraid you are becoming jaded.  

I repeat my question of Barney, which of course he won't answer, what truly accessible course -- no mandatory lodge stay, etc, -- matches Pacific Dunes?  I think that's why it squeaked past Pebble into first place.

Would I prefer to play Pebble or Pacific?  That is a great question, even if I'm asking it of myself.  I would definitely prefer to play the Pebble Beach of 1960 - no continuous cart paths, no wall-to-wall tee times, no five hour rounds, carrying your own bag - but that's impossible.   Walk at Pacific Dunes with a caddy or on your own with no cart paths?  Yes, I think that's what I'd prefer to do today.

Bill, lets get back to the article. What is a decent resort course? I am certainly not a David Kid fan and I will flatly state Bandon Dunes is not a decent resort course either. It is a top line resort course as is Bandon Trails.

Tiger,

I'm wondering why you say that you're not a David Kidd fan.  Bandon Dunes isn't above criticism, but have you played any of his other courses?  Why "not a David Kidd fan" rather than "not a Bandon Dunes fan"?

Bill,

In all seriousness and not just for the sake of argument I think both the Ocean Course at Kiawah and Pinehurst #2 are better resort courses without mandatory stays than Pacific Dunes.

These are courses I have played..

Tim:

You're on.  Stakes TBD.  I shall be watching the prices, as I too wish to keep going back there every couple years.  

Bill:

I am FAR from jaded - hell I love Pacific Dunes!  I'm mortgaging my future to go back there in Feb. 07. It's just wrong the say the ocean is in play there.  Is the ocean in play at Sandpiper?  And how is PD anything different than Sandpiper in terms of this small issue?  I don't know about you, but when I cite courses where the ocean's in play, I sure as hell don't cite these two, or Torrey Pines, or a few others on our coast that hang above the cliffs.  And I'll answer your question to Barney:  Pebble Beach.  Play it comped, early, walking with your own bag and it's not even that close.  Of course that's not possible for many, and the realities of golf at Pebble do make this turn in favor of PD, and that's not very close either.  But base it just on the golf courses - making each gratis, and if you still say PD, well.... 'tis you who have become too jaded... or dare I say too much of a Doak butt-boy.

The comparison won't take place for me - I won't play Pebble under the current conditions.  Now Cypress Point, there's a whole nother story!

Bill:

Never say never.
But of course you do have imagination, right?

Make the comparison taking out price and crowds.

Then tell me PD is superior.  

You can't.

And I have played PB like that.  

TH