I'm a pathetic golfer (handicap 15 going on 36) but I have enjoyed playing Hoylake from sensible tees on a number of occasions and I intend to enjoy it again during the Buda Cup.  I will run up many 6s and 7s and a few worse, but I will only be intimidated when I get into an impossible bunker and have to admit defeat and pick up.  The urge is to stand on the tee and hit the ball, not to close the eyes and cross the fingers.  I can play the longer par 4s as bogey 5s.  I don't hit the ball very far through the air, which makes me particularly impotent on my visits to the USA, but a drive carrying 190 to 200 yards will run on to 240 along the fairway, perhaps more with the wind.  My approach shots will most likely be played with 5 wood, so I'm automatically playing the right shot into links greens - land it short and run it in.  I won't break 100, but I'll enjoy it.

Huck

With your straightness you could have broken 85 on each of the 4 days at Hoylake.  Gib Papazian and Tommy Paul with their laser-like slinging hooks would probably have made the cut if they could have kept their blood alcohol content at an appropriately high level.

Hoylake is tough, but fair and can be had if you keep your wits about you.  I'll probably be proven wrong at the Buda Cup in October, though, so I have set this post to self-destruct in 14 days.

Audible yuks.  

So OK, I can dig that it's not the torture test many made it out to be pre-Open.  But we all know the dentist quote.

So - putting Pat's blood pressure aside for the moment - the views don't seem to inspire me nor does the look of the course itself that much.  If that is the case... I still see little there that would make me think of the course as any "fun."  "Tough but fair" is damn near the antithesis of what I find fun about this game and it's venues.  And for perspective, I see fun all over the course at Dornoch - this isn't just a fun based on success, Cruden Bay type thing.

Obviously the Buda Cup will be a blast - but that will be due to the people as much or more than the course.

Would you seek out Hoylake outside of the Buda, other than as a "comparison to the pros" thing?  That is, would you play it just for the fun of it?

That's what I'm having a hard time grasping.  It just doesn't inspire me nor does it seem much fun - all from afar.

TH

Sean - I am most definitely in agreement that cost matters, my comments about Spanish Bay nothwithstanding.

But let's assume that one is doing a UK rota.  In so doing, you kinda have to check your financial responsibility at the door - hell EVERYTHING is expensive for us visitors.

So assuming it's not totally out of line with the others on the Open rota and other great UK links and heathland courses one would seek out as a visitor, well... how high up does Hoylake rate?

BTW, by competitive golf, I meant tournaments and other events where one doesn't choose the course but rather it chooses him.  

TH

Tom Huckaby,

You have to rid yourself of this compulsion to play every round at every course from the tips.

I suspect that you wouldn't be permited to play the tips at Hoylake and many other UK courses.

So, for day in and day out play, from tees commensurate with your game, I"m certain that you'd enjoy Hoylake and many other courses in the UK on a steady diet.

Had Hoylake had a good breeze last week it might have changed many things, including your assessment of the golf course.

If you play WFW from the tips you won't enjoy yourself.

You'd enjoy yourself even less if we had a medal bet.

But, WFW from the non-championship tees is a treat, one you'd enjoy day in and day out.

I suspect it would be the same at Hoylake and many other courses.  We don't possess PGA Tour like skills or distance, and as such we shouldn't view playing a golf course in the context of the PGA Tour tips.

Expand your mind and your horizons, move up to tees commensurate with your game, it doesn't make you less of a man or a golfer.

Question re Hoylake, hopefully to be taken in the right light now that the furor has died down at least a little...:

Is it any FUN to play?

I've never been there.  All I know is from what I read here and elsewhere, and see in pictures and on TV.

Before the Open, all the talk was pretty much that it's a VERY difficult course - the oft-used "dentist reaches for the drill" quote was trotted out quite a bit.

After the Open, well... I can see that is in indeed a wonderful strategic test for the best players in the world - it's incredibly cool that the winner could play it primarily with irons while all the contenders primarily used drivers.  The shots into the greens did seem to require great care.

I just still don't see anything that would get me to change the view that for us normal golfers, it is a painful test and not much more.  See, there's no way on earth a guy like me hits anything but drivers unless I play VERY short tees.  As Rich says, there's plenty of room to blast away.  And I'd need to hit drivers to get to places I'd have a chance on the approach shots - I can't hit the soaring 200 yard 7irons Tiger does... That's a low burning 3iron for me.  I need to get to where I could get some loft, spin, control....

Then looking at the course in a view sense, well... I too dig brown colors every once in awhile, but outside of that, there really isn't all that much visually interesting, is there?

Then re the approaches, well... is anything there really all that special or unique in the world of links golf?

I have zero doubt Hoylake is a great golf course and belongs in the rota.

I just find myself less than itching to jump on a plane and play it, as I sure as hell am re St. Enodoc, pictures of which were just posted...

Hoylake to me still looks like a lot of work and not much fun - for us mortals anyway.

So where do I have this wrong?  Set me right.  I want to love this golf course....

TH

I played it yesterday afternoon with afriend who's a member.  We went off the green tees (as far back as we were allowed - about 6900 yards).  It was great fun to play.

Having played Hoylake before, I actually thought it was the easiest it has ever been to get the ball on or around the greens.  There was a light breeze, no more (very similar to Thursday when I watched the first round of the Open).  The rough was, by Hoylake's standards, feeble.  On 10 (they're keeping the Open routing for the rest of the summer) I hit driver in the hillocks on the right.  Most times I'd have half expected to lose that ball.  Yesterday I was able to hit a 5 iron just short of the green.  On 1 I hooked a drive into what should have been deep cabbage.  Yesterday it sat up on the spectator walkway and left an iron in.

The greens were, however, tricky.  Overall they weren't lightning quick but those brown patches were very slick.

Is it fun to play?  Yes, if played from appropriate tees and you've got your game.  Like most good links, if you aren't hitting it straight it won't be much fun.  Hoylake's a real challenge.  It's tougher in my book than Muirfield (which is a very fair test of golf) and certainly than the Old Course but not as tough as Carnoustie.

Mark - now we're talking - many thanks.  As I've said elsewhere on this thread, I am very open to the possibility I have misjudged Hoylake.  That "dentist" quote just does resonate with me...

So OK, I understand much better now that one can achieve some success on Hoylake if one plays tees appropriate for his game and does play well.

But can't one say that about ANY difficult golf course, outside of the most severe and nasty>?  For example, I'd certainly say that about Carnoustie...

And while I would put that course on the painful side, I have sought it out and enjoyed playing there very much.

I am just continuing to have a hard time seeing much that I'd enjoy playing Hoylake, outside of the natural coolness of playing a course on the Open rota.

What inspiring shots are there to be played, outside of just missing the bunkers as best as one can?

What makes it UNIQUE?  Stocked-sod bunkers are plentiful in the UK... as are flattish greens....

Help me out.  As I say, I want to love this golf course and I'm just not seeing it.

TH

Inspiring shots?  I guess that depends on your game and its strengths and weaknesses.

For me, there are more than enough.  At 1, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 17 and 18 most mortals will need to hit driver to even think of being in range and these are all shots that require a really well struck shot.

The tee shot at 3 may be terrifying but, for me, that's inspiring.

The second to 11 is only a short or mid-iron depending on the wind but you know that a well struck shot leaves a birdy chance.

The approach shots left by a decent drive at 12 and 14 are similar but I love the challenge of hitting to an uphill green with a narrow approach and trouble right and left with a long iron - tough, but what a thrill to play it well.

15 is surrounded by sand but hitting the green with a well struck mid iron is a thrill from the elevated tee.

Going for the green in two on 18, over the OB) is a thrill (as well as being stupid, as I proved yesterday!)

BTW, just as a means of trying to get across my convoluted impressions and questions here, note the following, from Geoff Shackelford's interview with Michael Bamberger, author and golf writer:


GeoffShac:    Your game story focused on Tiger, but I'm curious what you thought of Hoylake
MBamberger:    I thought Hoylake looked dull, and there was nothing about it that would make me want to play it. But when you heard the players talking about, especially Tiger, it was a reminder that they see courses completely differently.
GeoffShac:    so even after seeing how it rewarded thought, you still can't get excited about it?
MBamberger:    I'd play it in a minute, because I think you can understand these courses only if you've played them yourself. But no dunes, no sea, no wind--nothing to get too excited about.


MB's impression conveys EXACTLY what I've been trying to get across.  I am getting closer, thanks to Mark Pearce... but still something nags at me that there really is "nothing to get too excited about" re Hoylake.

TH

ps - here's the link for the full interview - top of home page as I post this:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/

Mark:

I caught that from TV - that strip of holes closest to the sea is at least dunesy.  So that's cool.

I posted that mainly to try and explain what I was getting at, and to show I was not alone.

TH

Mark - extremely well said - and I appreciate this a lot - this is very, very helpful for my understanding of a course that sure intrigued the hell out of me from afar last week.

I guess the bottom line is this:  I very much enjoyed Carnoustie, as much as it did kick my butt.

It seems that I'd enjoy Hoylake as well - and that dentist quote ought to be ignored, or at least not taken as the be all and end all summary of the course.

TH

This is a confusing thread to follow with Tom replying to Sean, but no sign of Sean!

Tom - I wonder what it is about Carnoustie that you remember so fondly that you don't see in Hoylake? There is one very large non-architectural difference which is relevant to the two experiences - Hoylake is one of the great clubs in British golf, a real sanctuary to warm the heart of any GCA afficianado in a way Carnoustie - which is a course rather than a club - can never do.

As for the course - I think it is the combination of the burnt brown look and dentist metaphor that's done for you.

You ask many times whether you can have fun at Hoylake. Well, it does not stimulate the visual senses (nor does Carnoustie) but as Mark has well described there is a lot of challenge to be had, and that is a source of fun, unless the weather is really rough, but that applies to all clubs.

I think the conditions of the Open and the way Tiger played it have given people the wrong idea of the course. Let me give you a sample of how it plays to a long hitting, somewhat wild 7 handicapper when the prevailing wind is blowing:

Hole 1 - hugely long  par four. no chance of driving into fairway bunkers.
2 - you can flog it over all the trouble to 100 yards from the green, but will struggle to hold the green from right rough.
3 - scary tee shot, OB much more in play than during the Open with the stands up. And the further left you take your drive, the more you bring OB into play for your second shot.
4 - you can flog it over the fairway bunkers down the right, but same challenge of being difficult to hit the green if you try to come from the right (which is where you would flog it to).
5 - long par 5, fairway bunkers unlikely to be in reach. need some strategy to get the ball in the right places.
6 - short hole: long iron into the wind, difficult green to reach and hold.
7 - you can hit a three iron for positon, followed by medium iron to the green.
8 - daunting blind drive into the wind, much of the trouble out of reach.
9 - short hole, needs a 6 iron or so to reach, but right to left wind and green shape make it difficult to hold.
10 - par five you can get quite close to in 2.
11  - just about driveable short 4. you can flog it close, but if you go right, you have difficult blind approach.
12 - if you drive bold and left you can maybe take bunkers out of play. even so, you still have 5 iron or so into the wind for your second.
13 - tough medium/long iron with wind coming from the left to short hole.
14 - similar challenges to 12.
15 - a very short (downwind) little shot to small green, all about direction and control.
16 - very reachable par 5 - downwind -  with as little as 5 iron or so for 2nd shot if you have hit a good drive and stayed down the right.
17 - brutal par four, similar to 1, where even your two best shots might not get you up. fairway bunkers most unlikely to bother you.
18 - similar to 16, very reachable downwind par 5. the further right you go, the more OB you must cross for your 2nd, but you definitely think you can make birdie.

Summarising - maybe not so penal/claustrophobic as you might think. Some holes much tougher than when still, and others a fair bit easier. The club is very proud of the "links" as they like to call it, and honouring fast-running links traditions, but you will probably have to wait ten years to see it so dry again.

Mark, as a person who has played the course, I'd be interested to hear whether or not you believe that the positive attributes you have experienced qualify the course to serve as a template for future design. I think it's safe to say that the couse is not "spectacular," in the way that many highly-touted courses are, yet it yielded a most interesting Open, even bereft of protection from the weather. Going back to Mr. Mucci's original thought, does Hoylake make you believe, after playing it, that it has a recipe for future courses that can be emulated successfully somewhere else?

A recipe for future course design?  I'm not sure, though I think the answer is yes.  I am sure that there are many lessons the design of Hoylake can teach modern architects.  The internal OB is undoubtedly quirky and probably wouldn't be well received if copied but that doesn't in my book make it a weakness in the original.  The two right to left gog-legs (12 and 14 are great holes with their bunkered inside corners and longer bunkering on the outside corner.  Neither is over long but both are a real challenge.

Philip:

The simple difference is this:  I've played Carnoustie - yes I got very little "club" feel there, but I did very much enjoy the golf course.

I've yet to get to Hoylake - I've made that very clear - thus my impressions are from afar.  I also truly had no clue that it was "one of the great clubs in British golf, a real sanctuary to warm the heart of any GCA afficianado in a way Carnoustie - which is a course rather than a club - can never do."  That means a LOT to me and reading that, I am feeling rather sheepish for questioning Hoylake.

But hopefully you can understand my confusion from afar.  We have the dentist drill quote, the lack of obviously inspiring sand dunes and the lack of other obvious visual stimulation, and precious few obviously stimulating/inspring shots as seen from afar.  It would seem the pretty darn astute Michael Bamberger had the same impression I did, and he was there!  So I don't think I'm crazy in asking these questions....

I am just aiming for education, which several have given me here, including yourself - which I greatly appreciate.

As I said very early on, I want to love this golf course / golf club.  From what's been written here, there is no doubt in my mind now I truly would if I ever did get the chance to play it.  Sadly that is not likely to occur... at least not any time soon.  Thus I try for education here.

TH