[TEPaul]

TomD:

I'm sure there were all kinds of different ways and means that American GCA consciously or unconsciously tried to distance itself from the original golf or golf courses of the linksland.

Did that mean that American golfers or GCAs didn't like original linksland courses for some reason? I doubt that. It probably only meant American GCA didn't fully appreciate the unique land of the linksland and merely assumed that golf could exist just fine in many other different types of sites in America.

I see the original migration of golf outside Scotland to England and Ireland and then America beginning in the latter part of the 19th century in the same vein. I don't think anyone was rebelling against or turning away from the types of courses the Scottish linksland had, they were merely attempting to use whatever was available to them for the first rudimentary examples of golf in other places that bore the first rudimentary expressions of GCA.

Their sites, if they were inland, were generally so different from anything that had been used for golf before. We need to appreciate better what that meant---or perhaps I should say what it didn't mean.

I think they were merely using whatever was available whether it was different types of land never used for golf before or some model for a course----eg the world of the horse, racing, steeplechasing (the obstacle features of steeplechasing were apparently remarkably adaptable and convenient for early inland golf), apple orchards etc.

Some on here have tried to assign much of this early GCA expression to the Industrial Revolution or its ethos or aura. I doubt it was anything like that. I think early golf outside the Scottish linksland was far more innocence and rudimentary and far less "studied", if you will, than something like that.

But when golf really began to expand and explode in America there's probably little question American ingenuity and American analysis began to take over. (Macdonald's horror at USGA President Robertson's proclamation (1901) "that now American will have "American" golf because nothing can stay long in America without being "Americanized"", is obviously very apropos and representative of this evolution).

When I say "American analysis" (of the game of golf and its architecture) I'm referring to such things as the comprehensive mathematical analyses a man like Joshua Crane put the game and its playing fields through to the surprise and disappointment of some architects who'd obviously embarked on some philosophical journey back towards "naturalism" in golf architecture (1920s).

At that point, it seems, the application of landscape architecture began to truly insert itself into GCA.

I suppose that was a logical or expected evolution but following WW2 the industry and art forms of GCA probably needed to step back for a time and decide what ultimate purposes LA was suppose to serve VS what purpose GCA was supposed to serve. I doubt that was ever properly and adequately discussed or considered---or perhaps even thought of.

At those points, at those crossroads, American GCA, particularly, probably lost most any connection to the Scottish linkland and original seaside golf courses.

But it seems to me everything cycles, and GCA is no different. One could probably make a good case that the rudimentary courses of the latter half of the 19th century, sometimes referred to as "Victorian" golf architecture in GB, and "Geometric" golf architecture in America, eventually began to so disgust some that a rebellion away from those forms was inspired (Macdonald said precisely that of the crap that preceded his NGLA in America). The first cycle was clearly a look back at the linksland and the brilliant new comprehensively designed Heathland architecture (first really good courses inland).

Perhaps the same basic cycle has occured in American in the last decade or so. It seems enough golfers and architects simply grew weary of the model of architecture in the modern age with its ungolf-like applications of some aesthetic forms of LA. It seems just incredibly ironic to me that the very first mini-rebellion away from the era of so-called "Modern Architecture" in America was from Pete Dye who actually became semi-fixated on not exactly the naturalism of linksland golf courses but on their extremely rudimentary (artificial) original man-made features.  

And so, the first real renaissance in the history of GCA was borne probably beginning in the early 1990s. And that is the style and vein you find yourself in, as we do. Will it sweep all of GCA and virtually kill what preceded it like the beginning of the "Golden Age" virtually killed "Victorian" and "Geometric" architecture?

I doubt it but we shall see some day.  

There's probably little doubt that we are in the midst of another crossroad in the evolution of GCA right now.

[T_MacWood]

What was William Flynn's connection to British golf? Stanley Thompson? I'm curious if they traveled abroad or perhaps were influenced by British golf architects practicing over here (seeing that they both started as construction men).

[TEPaul]

Flynn never went to Europe. In my opinion, William Flynn had something of his own niche that evolved out of the vestiges of semi-unnatural looking GCA forms (pre-teens and teens) into some scientific application of GCA tailored to the needs and necessities of the game itself (various levels of players) with a fairly liberal dose of a form of "naturalized" landscape architecture priniciples and GCA maintenance functionality.

Wayne and I tend to view Flynn's style as something of a transition from the old into the general styles of the great Golden Age of architecture with noticeable expressions of the new that was to come, which he did not quite live to see and work in.

It could be that an architect like Flynn whose primary influences seem to be mostly Merion early but also PVGC a bit later was one of those who developed some unique "American" architectural characteristics. Ron Prichard, for instance, believes that the basic style of the Merion East bunkers was something of a unique development that just could be considered the prototype of something of a generic "American" bunker. Where the idea came from is not that clear.

But there is no question this style of GCA (call it perhaps the "Philadelphia School") was enough different from the styles of Macdonald and Raynor and the highly artistic naturalized style of the likes of MacKenzie to follow. Philadelphia's Tillinghast seemed to be somewhere between them in his own somewhat unique styles of architectural expression. And Ross was sort of in his own different place and styles.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak,

Flynn never went to the UK.  Some of his influences were derived from Hugh Wilson, Crump and others that had spent time in the UK.  Tom and I spoke a lot about this and it seemed Flynn followed an interesting path as he continued the work of Wilson and Crump in transitioning American golf course architecture into its own style; one with aerial demand holes as well as aerial and ground option holes.  Pine Valley and Merion are about 50:50 in aerial demand holes versus option holes and that influence (and in the case of Merion the influence went both ways) is easily seen in Flynn's portfolio of work.  Maybe Dick Wilson took it even further although I do not have a lot of experience with his work.  When maintenance practices changed and courses became soft, there went the ground game options and so architecture changed to adapt to the maintenance practices.  It became an aerial point-to-point game.  I'm glad we are in the midst of a cycling back.

PS:  I just caught your post, Tommy.  Well said!

[BCrosby]

TEP/Wayne -

What you say about Flynn is interesting. I agree that he was a sort of transitional designer. I might even go further and say his work also formed a bridge from the Golden Age to RTJ and Dick Wilson.

Flynn was not a classic strategic designer in the mold of MacK or MacD or Thomas. The influence of TOC and other links courses is obvious in the work of the latter group. I don't see much of TOC at all in Flynn. From the beginning he was coming from a different (more American?) direction. And the designers that were influeced by Flynn continued along that same "American" path. Somtimes not for the better, I might add.

Bob  

[T_MacWood]

Was Flynn in the military during WW1?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Flynn worked for Bethlehem Steel for his commitment during WWI (one year, I think).  He had some kind of dispensation for having a wife and kids.  I guess he was in his late 20s at the time (born Dec. 25, 1890).  While he was gone, his protoge, Joe Valentine, took over his duties at Merion and his design business was on hold.  When he got back from his work at Bethlehem Steel, Joe Valentine was doing well that Flynn was able to move into architecture full time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Your post, # 25 is interesting.

Do you think, as a culture, that America's victory in WW II caused us to disconnect with or abandon everything European in nature or origin ?

In other words, we were the victors, we know what we're doing, we know what's best, we're the experts and we're going to continue to seperate and distinguish ourselves from everything we've inherited or acquired from Europe, and that included golf course architecture ?

That WW II signaled a new age, the American age, whereby traditional European values would be diminished or discarded ?

[TEPaul]

"I might even go further and say his work also formed a bridge from the Golden Age to RTJ and Dick Wilson."

BobC:

That is just about precisely what I mean by calling Flynn the "Transition Architect".

[Mike_Sweeney]

That WW II signaled a new age, the American age, whereby traditional European values would be diminished or discarded ?

Patrick,

Following that thought, I heard today that China's economy is growing at 10%. If you look at China's golf architecture today, what I have seen looks straight out of Florida at least in pictures. Thus, while our small group seems convinced that Doak and C&C are leading a Renaissance movement back to European values, I don't see it catching steam when the real growth of golf will be coming in the near future from China and Asia.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Your post, # 25 is interesting.

Do you think, as a culture, that America's victory in WW II caused us to disconnect with or abandon everything European in nature or origin?"

Pat:

I do not, not at all. In both a cultural and certainly in an economic sense following WWII the USA did not disconnect from Europe at all---not from the Europe of our allies or even the Europe of our WWII enemies, particularly Germany, or what became known to us as West Germany. Obviously there was the decades long "head-scratcher" of two Germanys, East and West, but I feel that was as much a failure to negotiate properly amongst our allies, certainly including Russia just following the War's end. The plight of Germany and the two Germanys was a hot debate generally for years. Some felt it was something of a tragedy to not permit Germany to reunite into its single country while others were adamant that it should never again be allowed to be anything but split and weakened for that reason. After-all, they reasoned, how many more times did the world want to accept the risk of having them do what they did twice with 20-30 years---eg create two of the most monstrous world-wide calamities history had ever known?

On the other hand, we can certainly not overlook the futuristic master stroke of the USA's "Marshall Plan" to do everything we could to help rebuild and revitalize Europe, particularly West Germany.

Obviously a future thinker like Geo Marshall and his cohorts had totally understood the futility and future danger of doing to German what the Allies had done following WW1 which was to both attempt make them pay war reparations when they were totally devastated and bankrupt which eventually served the purpose of additionally humiliating them even more which clearly set the stage for the rise of a Hitler and his Nazi Third Reich, that led directly into the next world-wide calamity--WWII.

No, we did not disconnect from Europe, but with golf course architecture the differing roads America took from Europe were for various other reasons such as the very different types of sites we were using for golf compared to Scotland and their linkslands, as well as the fact that golf was so new to America just before and following the beginning of the 20th century. American people are just naturally innovative and its wasn't to be that they would wed themselves to any nation or culture in golf or architecture for long.

Just read Macdonald's accounts of this time and the reasons things happened and evolved as they did. There is no better first hand account of this time and evolution than his, in my opinion.

On the other hand, there is no denying that there seemed to be a rather large and rather deep competitiveness between the USA and the old country that showed itself to be remarkably intense in both golf tournaments and apparently in architecture too. If it were not that way there never could've been such a general flap over Travis and his putter or over Quimet and his unlikely victory as the first American to win our Open.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Yes, I think that's closer to the mark. It's not that Americans lost touch with the UK. They were affirmatively trying to get away from it.

Post WWII seemed to be about new beginnings, getting beyond the Old World mess of war and Depression. So what you got were crew cuts, bobbie socks, clean living, hard work, don't buck the system, the company man and all that.

And hard, long, no b.s. golf courses like Firestone, Peachtree, and Doral.

TEP -

Seems to me you and Wayne could make a pretty good case that Flynn was the first "American" golf architect.

Bob  

[Eric Franzen]

That WW II signaled a new age, the American age, whereby traditional European values would be diminished or discarded ?

Patrick,

Following that thought, I heard today that China's economy is growing at 10%. If you look at China's golf architecture today, what I have seen looks straight out of Florida at least in pictures. Thus, while our small group seems convinced that Doak and C&C are leading a Renaissance movement back to European values, I don't see it catching steam when the real growth of golf will be coming in the near future from China and Asia.

Golf is still very much in the early phase of getting established in China. With more people being able to play and try out the game over there I would guess that we'll someday see some Chinese guys searching for inspiration on the British Isles and then returning home to start interesting careers in GCA.  Just as Dye and Doak did their thing back in the days.

[TEPaul]

"TEP -
Seems to me you and Wayne could make a pretty good case that Flynn was the first "American" golf architect."

Bob:

Maybe that's so, although I'm not sure how interesting that would be.

There's no question, though, that Flynn was probably one of the first, if not the very first, of the early American golf architects who had no particular connections to European golf architects or European golf architecture. There seems to be little to nothing he ever said or wrote or did that related to it or used it as some influence on his architecture. His somewhat humorous remark about the linksland mentality on trees and the quaintness of it compared to the innovative use of trees in 'modern' America architecture is probably good enough proof of that fact.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Charles Blair MacDonald died before the first bombs hit Pearl Harbor.

It was OUR Marshall Plan, our involvement and leadership in the reconstruction of old world Europe.  We no longer considered Europe our equal, we were now the new, big kid on the block, and as such, determined in our ways.

I beleive that there was a rejection of European values and that included design principles when it came to GCA.

I also wonder how much influence the SeaBeas had on post WW II architecture and golf course construction methods, and most importantly, on site selection.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Your initial post talks only about the apparent lose of the way of American golf architecture as it distanced itself from its roots (in the UK) following WWII.

My post #25 tries to track the beginnings of American architecture's distancing itself from its UK roots long before that---probably beginning almost 50 years before that.

[TEPaul]

"It was OUR Marshall Plan, our involvement and leadership in the reconstruction of old world Europe.  We no longer considered Europe our equal, we were now the new, big kid on the block, and as such, determined in our ways."

Patrick:

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, although I wouldn't exactly say that it was WWII that prompted America and Americans to feel they were the big kid on the block with no equal in the world. I think that general feeling began to occur amongst Americans before that.

"I beleive that there was a rejection of European values and that included design principles when it came to GCA."

Again, I do not think that departure from European values in both golf and architecture began as late as WWII. I think it began considerably before that as well as for quite different primary reasons.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Prior to WW II we were isolationists, protected by two Oceans.

I don't think we felt as though we were the leaders or trendsetters of the world.

Post WW II I think our headset changed.

I also wonder how much in the way of alterations to "classic" golf courses were done pre and post WW II.

And, I wonder why the disciples of the "classic" or "golden age" architects didn't provide for a continuum amongst their disciples.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
I also wonder how much in the way of alterations to "classic" golf courses were done pre and post WW II.

And, I wonder why the disciples of the "classic" or "golden age" architects didn't provide for a continuum amongst their disciples.

Patrick:

Where have you been man? This is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. The facts and realities of those two issues have been discussed and made evident for years.

For starters, there was one helluva lot more alterations done to classic courses throughout the 1930s than most realize, and that can be very easily proven. Ron Prichard's reasoning on why that was is the best I've ever heard.

As to why there was not much of a continuum from the Golden Age into the Modern Age following WWII, haven't you heard about the so-called "hiatus" on new construction architecture and new projects that lasted for maybe 10-15 years through the depression years and into the years of WWII where most courses were semi-mothballed? In that period most of the great Golden Oldies died and were gone or forgotten. I guess you aren't much up on your architectural history, huh?  

For God's Sake please don't get fixated on some unsupportable assumption or conclusion that WWII caused some primary departure of American architecture from its UK roots the way Tom MacWood became fixated on his assumption and conclusion that the great Golden Age of Architecture was so completely influenced by the "Arts and Crafts" Movement with Horace Hutchinson acting as the "Father" of all architecture that the Golden Age should be relabeled "Arts and Crafts Golf Architecture".  

[T_MacWood]

I wonder what effect the modern movement in architecture, landscape architecture and design had upon modern golf architecture....starting with the International style and the Bauhaus, a lot of glass and steel, in opposition the more eclectic design and natural materials that came before.

And the advent of Urban renewal, where old neighborhoods and old architecture and old row-houses were demolished and replaced by clean modern highrise buildings. Many of our inner-cities are still suffering with those cold 'modern' low-income tenemants where once homey old neighborhoods stood. And don't forget the tract housing...the Levitowns.

Modern technology and modern materials made it possible to build those highrise apartment buildings just as modern technology allowed RTJ and Wilson to do what they did (unfortunately often cold, lifeless and lacking character)...push into new terriotory. Pushing into new terriotory is fine, but I think it is best to do it with a healthy respect for the past.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think you guys are missing a very important point about the 'dark ages'.

The fact is, after WWII and the GI Bill, the 50s and 60s saw a level of economic prosperity in America that was unprecedented in many ways.   Perhaps it's not reflected in great gains on Wall Street, or any of the predominant economic indicators, but the bottom line is that for the first time in our history, members of social stratas below the top rung suddenly had a little piece of the American Dream, and with it, the concept of leisure time for recreation.

As such, and although they were primarily "functional" architects, the 50s and 60s saw the rapid explosion in the game for courses beyond those built simply for the elite classes (if you think about it, with the exception of a few munis, probably 90% of the Golden Age courses we adore in America were built for the upper crust).  Suddenly, all sorts of folks were building both private and public courses, and architects such as RT Jones, Dick Wilson, Ed Ault, Billy Bell, William Harrison, and host of others designed and built hundreds of courses to meet the demand.

Then came Arnie in the late 50s/early 60s, and golf really reached the common man.  Suddenly, golf was also televised, and became much more of an American pasttime than it ever was during the Golden Age.

So, the courses didn't exactly break any new ground or live up to the greatest of the works of art that were built before then.  However, for the guy carrying the lunchpail to his construction job 5 days a week, the sudden ability to get up early on Saturday, mow the grass, and maybe join up with a few buddies down at the new, affordable public course down the road followed by a few beers, while carrying a rolled up pack of butts under a clean t-shirt sleeve was more than enough challenge, strategy, and aesthetic beauty.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's conflicted to say that the depression caused a 10-15 year hiatus on the creation of new courses, but, a flurry of activity on altering existing courses.

The money problem was universal, so much so that some of the wealthiest clubs in America teetered on bankruptcy and disolution.

Mike Cirba,

You've confirmed what I said, that "newer" bigger and better were in vogue.  The only problem was that substance didn't follow form.  There was a rejection of the values of GCA handed down by those whose roots lay overseas and then to their disciples.

This was the disconnect.

One could also conclude that the disconnect manifested itself in alterations to existing classic courses, that the new generation of club members and architects were going to improve on what the old masters designed and built.

Yet, for the most part, the test of time has proven that they failed miserably.  But, they didn't think so at the time.

One only has to look at the 12th hole at GCGC to understand the process.

Here was a great hole.
Some claim it was the club's signature hole.
Yet, it was layed to waste, disregarded, disfigured and a NEW, BIGGER & BETTER hole built in its place.

However, the test of time has proven that the alteration was an abominable failure, despite what the members and the architect involved/responsible for the project thought.

Paul Cowley,

I never said it was a conscious decision, although, in some cases I feel it was.

It seems to me that there was a blatant disregard for the traditional design principles as manifested in the golden age, in favor of the newer, bigger, better, bolder designs presented by the post WW II architects.

While the depression may have been the begining of the disconnect, primarily for financial reasons, post WW II would seem to be the culmination of the disconnect for many of the reasons stated previously.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I thought I had answered on this one, but here goes:

While TEPaul in post 25 hits most of the major points, here is a succint version:

I think the biggest disconnect between American gca and the original links may have come before 1900 in our earliest golf courses, probably because they felt the land was so much different it needed a different approach, even if they thought about the classics at all.  Or, they may have felt the desire to give it an American version of golf, much like our version of the English language.  It was too early to endulge in nostalgia when there was a continent to spread golf over.

Where the heck did they get square greens and artifical mounds, chocolate drops, etc. out of GBI?  Would NGLA have been such a big deal if other early courses had any inkling of the GBI classic holes?  After NGLA, a handful of intrepid gca's started thinking that way, but even the courses of Ross, McDonald and others with Scottish Golf backgrounds, didn't really look like links courses that might have been a model. (for that matter, Sunningdale didn't look like links courses and may have been the American model.)

All gca changes after the depression are, IMHO, more attributable to economics or technology (construction or implements) and represent a long evolution rather than a major shift in American golf design thinking vs. those early years.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

CBM, Ross and others were clearly connected to golf architecture in the UK.  And, that connection wasn't limited to "Links" golf courses.

I think we understand the inherent disconnect between Links and inland golf courses.

The architectural disconnect comes after those fellows.

RTJ and others, post WW II, ushered in a new age that represented a departure from the architecture of old.

[T_MacWood]

Jeff B.
Square greens were not uncommon in the UK, for example Dornoch (DJR's home course) had them. Chocolate drops and artificial mounds again came from the UK - examples like old Mid Surrey and her ramparts (pre-Taylor & Lees) and Bournemouth and her crazy chocolate drop mounds. Two very famous and popular courses.

Who laid out many of the early American courses - imported pros from the UK. They were simply copying what they saw at home.

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