[John Foley]

Haven't seen BT yet, but #14 sure gets alot of pub.

I'm w/ huck though, #8 @ SH frpm the middle tee's is a better short par 4 than #7. That deep bunker before the green is just devilish. Frome either side of the fairway options abound.

Here's a kicker though, the best short 4 I've played is one by Fazio & I guarantee others think so also.

[Tom Huckaby]

John - yep - I didn't even begin to mention the evilness, cruelness, and greatness of that little pit in front of 8...

But man I also have not enough knowledge, or imagination.  Which Fazio hole are you referring to?

TH

[ed_getka]

John,
   Are you going to tell us which hole?

Tom,
   Great point regarding the possibility of a 2. Since I don't even think of such things I hadn't considered that. I know I can't reach on either hole so my whole thesis was about making birdie, but you bring up excellent points.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - no hassles man - to me it's also cool, and signifies the greatness of both - how differently they play for different people.

But I've seen you hit great drives... you can reach either hole, but I also think you have a better chance on 8.

In any case, limiting it to the pitch shots and taking reaching the green out of the equation on each, well then yes, 7 is better in terms of luring one into thinking birdie, but then springing the trap.  Man no pitch into 8 is ever going to be easy, and will always require great creativity... the pitch from short right on 7 looks easy - as I posted - but man does it play tougher.  I sure have screwed it up more than I've gotten it close from down there.

So this is a cool GCA situation where we're both "right."

 

[John Foley]

So what is a tougher second shot @ SH from the pit short of the 8th, the bunker left of 7 or a pitch from short or righ odf 7? A pitch on 8 is not too tough unless the pin is tucked behind the bunker, which in that case you can run the ball from either side and take the bunker out of play.

IMHO the bunker shot at 8 is tougher as leaving it in there is a possibility.

Does anyone know if there have been 1's from either tee?

As for the Fazio hole, #15 at World Woods - Pine Barrens is world class. Waste area/Hazard right down the middle. Have to take it to the right side to make it. Lay up to the left you've got a downhill 2nd shot to a narrow green (green is longer than wide and from that angle it's reverse) and it you hit it too far left  it's blind! Favorite short par 4 around.

[Tom Huckaby]

JF:

First, re Sand Hills.  I'd rank the approaches like this, in terms of toughest to easiest:

1.  Front part of bunker left 7 (toward the tee).  That's a LOT approach, all over sand, with about 5 bad things that can happen and one good.  The good takes a VERY VERY good shot.  Of course I saw Tom Paul pull it off... but he's a great player.  

2.  Any part of the bunker on 8.  Yep, very good possibility to leave it in.  But it is a much shorter shot.

3.  Shorter bunker shot on 7, closer to the green.  Still very tough, still screwuppable, but shorter.

4.  Pitches from below right on 7.

5.  Pitches into 8.  But yes, if the pin is tucked near to the bunker, this moves way up, likely to #1 - at least in terms of getting close.  It's never gonna be that tough to just get it on the green.  Taking one's medicine and aiming for 30 feet away with a very tough putt becomes the difficult there as well.

I'd have to guess there have been aces made on each hole.  But we need Gene for that.

Now... on to WW-PB #15... I have played it but once, and it was quite a few years ago... And I will say it is a great, great golf hole... I just don't recall it as being really reachable, not for me anyway.  Make it so, and oh yes we have a very valid contender here.  Great call.

TH

[John Foley]

Tom,

It takes a BIG drive to reach the green at WW-PB #15, but it's do-able. They did a Shell's match there (Toms & Mickleson?) and it showed the hole played very well.

I never spent any time in the bunker on #7 so I'll take your word on the difficulty of that shot. If I rmeber correct, it was definetly one of the smaller greens which will make any recoveries much more difficult.

[Tom Huckaby]

I saw that Shell match.  The hole is certainly eminently driveable for the pros.  But I prefer to assess holes how they play for me... Mike Benham likes to say I am sneaky long off the tee, but the truth is I am eminently average.

So put me at a set of tees were 260-270 can roll out and reach, and hell yeah that is a great contender, as I say.  I'm pretty sure such tees exist.  I just played the tips when I was there, for god knows what reason.

Re 7 Sand Hills, you are a lucky man not to have ventured into the pit of doom.  It is not a happy place.  

[Wayne Freeman]

Tom and John-  I wanted to answer you this morning, but couldn't log on-
                        About the walk up to the 14th-  you can't do that anymore-  they are transporting everyone up in a trolley car apparently because a marshall had a heart attack walking up the hill.  By the way-  I was very put out by that and I thought it put a big negative on the whole routing thing.  With all that acreage, it just seems like the routing could have worked out better.  Certainly at Friar's Head and Old Sandwich, such things did not occur.
     
         Tom-  about birdie possibilities and short par 4's.  I just feel that every course should have at least 1 and preferably 2par  4's that  everyone, with a decent drive off the tee can have a short iron in to get a possible birdie.   I think it is a real positive thing in golf and makes for a better overall experience.  

[rjsimper]

   
         Tom-  about birdie possibilities and short par 4's.  I just feel that every course should have at least 1 and preferably 2par  4's that  everyone, with a decent drive off the tee can have a short iron in to get a possible birdie.   I think it is a real positive thing in golf and makes for a better overall experience.  

If played from the proper tees for one's skill and length, does Bandon Trails not fit this bill (not including the 14th hole)

8 for sure, and either 4 or 6.

While as I stated earlier, I am undecided on the hole, I do agree that a short par 4 does not necessarily have to wear the crown of "your best chance at birdie not including par 5s" for a golf course.


And I do strongly agree with you that a good course should have at least one good short par 4...

[Tim Pitner]

Tom-  about birdie possibilities and short par 4's.  I just feel that every course should have at least 1 and preferably 2par  4's that  everyone, with a decent drive off the tee can have a short iron in to get a possible birdie.   I think it is a real positive thing in golf and makes for a better overall experience.  

Wayne,

Bandon Trails #14 certainly does fit the bill.  It's just not easy to hit the green, even with a short iron (or chip for that matter).  This is starting to sound like you ended up in the wrong place(s) on #14 and have a grudge against the hole.  I'm not saying this to be dismissive.  It can happen and it can affect one's judgment of a hole.

[TEPaul]

What's wrong with a short driveable par 4 where it's tough to make par?

I haven't played the hole but the novelty of such a concept would get my attention, and probably my respect.

[Wayne Freeman]

  OK OK-  I'm going to let this go for the most part- but I just can't' feel that for a top rated course like Trails that the 14th matches up in any way with other great ones I've played at places like-  Olympic, Riviera, Myopia Hunt, Double Eagle, Creek Club.

[rjsimper]

 OK OK-  I'm going to let this go for the most part- but I just can't' feel that for a top rated course like Trails that the 14th matches up in any way with other great ones I've played at places like-  Olympic, Riviera, Myopia Hunt, Double Eagle, Creek Club.

I wouldn't try to argue with you that 14 at trails is a better hole than 10 at Riviera, but I would definitely argue that a difficult par on a short 4 does not make it a fundamentally flawed hole.

It does, however, make it one of the most frustrating holes for probably the largest percentage of golfers at Bandon Trails - the 18 handicapper likely does not expect to make par on 7, so the bogey here doesn't steam him too much.  But that same 18 capper, and even a 30 handicapper probably sees 300 yards on the card and fancies himself a great shot at a par on 14 and when that doesn't happen, we wonder why.

[Wayne Freeman]

Ryan-  you have made some very insightful comments and I appreciate that.  I'm going to change my outlook somewhat, and not look at all short par 4's as high potential birdies. Some definitely are good tough par 4's and they can still be excellent.

[Steve_Roths]

TEPaul.  I don't think the problem is that you can't make par on the hole.  I think it is just a goofy hole that is not really playable.

On your average short par 4 you could hit a 5 iron off the tee and be left well back but could safely play an iron to the green.  Here if you try to lay up you get kicked down into a spot that you will have a very hard time holding the green.

I think if they put the green at the bottom of the hill and let you sling the ball off the hill towards the green it would be much more fun.  

[Michael Dugger]

Having played it twice, each time with a foursome of very decent golfers, I have yet to see the green hit in regulation.

I personally accept the hole, it's as fair as anything in golf.  It's not suppose to be fair!

But I do kinda think the hill is a little too severe.  Of the eight opportunities to play the hole, as I mentioned earlier, I only saw one ball stay up on the hill.  Every single other well hit ball took the hill and rolled all the way to the bottom.

It is indeed a tough shot from down there, but not impossible. nor more difficult than other shots we are asked to pull off on other golf holes.

What I kinda don't like is that the hole really doesn't offer that many options.  You try and keep your drive up on the hill.  But it's pretty darn steep!  Maybe too steep.  Balls don't seem to ever want to stay up on it.  

That's my two bits.
 

[Walt Cutshall]

It's a poorly designed hole, IMO. Most of the tee shots end up in the same place in the fairway, regardless of what club you hit off the tee. Even well struck shots won't hold the green. The green complex itself is relatively uninteresting. There are numerous great holes at BT, but #14 isn't one of them.

[Eric Olsen]

Are they seriously making everyone take a trolley car from the 13th green to the 14th tee box?!?!?!  

[TEPaul]

"I think if they put the green at the bottom of the hill and let you sling the ball off the hill towards the green it would be much more fun."

SteveR:

I can certainly see that. Matter of fact, I thought that's what they should've done on the 7th hole at Sand Hills. I can see why they didn't, though, which was obviously because they wanted to keep the green as close to that massive, massive blowout just to the left of it. However, if they'd put the green to the right with a massive left to right "kicker" area (where the green now is) most golfers would probably be using the "kicker" area to filter the ball onto the green anyway and so they'd still need to come near that big blowout on the left with their approaches.

On the other hand, one time I was walking Hidden Creek with James Ducan (C&C's project manager on that course) and about half-way through the walk James mentioned that he thought Bill was dabbling into somewhat of a philosophy he referred to as "beyond strategy".  

Maybe the 14th at "Trails" is an example of that new philosophy.  

In a tournament context I have run across various holes where my mindset isn't exactly to make a par but only to hopefully make something that I feel is a little less than most of the rest of the field might make.

I'm not trying to be funny or apologetic on that for C&C but if you think about it a hole or concept like that just may have a place in golf and interesting architecture.

On the other hand, my definition of a bad concept is something that you feel no matter what you do or how well you do it it's chances of working out aren't good.  
 
 

[Tim Pitner]

The green complex itself is relatively uninteresting.

Huh?  The green falls off dramatically left and right, leaving about a 7-8 yard shelf that you have to hit your ball onto if you're approaching from the front.  You have two deep bunkers on the right complicating things.  How is that uninteresting?  It seems to me that it's a type of green you rarely see in the U.S.  It's reminiscent of something like the Road Hole.  That's one of the reasons I like the hole--it's unique and seems like the kind of quirky hole you might see in Scotland or Ireland.  

[Eric Olsen]

The other option on 14 at BT would be to move the green back down the hill, behind the current green, so the 2nd shot would be blind, and big hitters could conceivably chase a drive all the way down the hill.  

None of us liked the hole when we played it in January.  I will see if my opinion changes when I play it again later this summer.

[Wayne Freeman]

Eric-  when we played there both days there was a transport vehicle waiting for us when we got to the road to take us to 14- they might insist that everyone take it now for medical-legal reasons.  I don't know-  they just told us again that someone just had a heart attack walking up to the 14th tee.  
   Bondo-  I don't know how that typo occurred. On my text that I reviewed prior to posting I didn't see that.

[Tim Pitner]

Eric,

I too was just there.  The cart was waiting for us after 13 on both days, but I never heard that we were required to take it.  Actually, the cart didn't start one time so we hiked up the hill.  We didn't refuse it the second day (playing the afternoon 18 of two straight 36-hole days).  The walk/cart ride is unfortunate, but I like 13 and 14 so I can tolerate it.  I didn't hear anything about a heart attack.  

[rjsimper]

I am not sure what the huge problem is about having the cart there - I for one was thankful to not have to slog up the hill -

Am I less of a golfer because I accepted the ride?

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