[Tom_Doak]

I think one of the main reasons you see fewer par-4's where you don't want to hit driver today, is because of the standardization in the way holes are drawn and staked.

Nearly every architect draws his holes with a "turning point" or "landing area" at 800 feet (or 850, or 900), based on where he thinks a player will wind up with his driver from the back tee.  This then becomes the "landing area" and while some may tighten the landing area at that spot, few would consider locating it on a severe slope or turning the fairway in front of it or making the fairway disappear completely at 800 feet.

If you drew an 800 foot mark on the 17th at Crystal Downs you would be chipping from there to the green, because the hole is only 311 yards.

Maybe we should draw our short par-4's with a 600- or 700-foot tee shot to reinforce the idea of inviting people to hit an iron off the tee.  I do think it's a great idea to have a couple of holes like that, but I still try to design them so that the long-hitting narcissist can try to hit driver at his own peril.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Sean -

My sarcasm does not reveal that if I take driver out of my hands, I generally score better.  I don't mind 1-2 holes of forced lay-ups, if there are some corresponding 460-480 yarders that reward skill with the driver.  I hate dictated lay-ups with no options.  

What I was driving at (Pun fully intended) is that sometimes there is too much emphasis penalizing the longer hitter.  It is very rare to find widening fairways rewarding the 300 yard + tee shot...  Often there is a minute reward for an all or nothing risk.  Are there holes that punish the poorly executed safe shot while doing the same to the accomplished five handicap who flies it at a 30 yard wide target.  Florida holes with the lateral WH's come to mind.

I am going to have my cookies now, when I want them ;>

JWK

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

TD -

LHN here.  At least at #16 at PD, there seems to be a balance between going for the green and a challenging 2nd to the SHCerebralist.  The kick plate to the left of the green makes the shot worth the risk.  I have played the hole both ways downwind, and prefer the 2nd from closer to the green.

#14 at Charlotte Golf Links does demonstrate you point.  I will try to thread the need with the driver, even though the 210 yard tee shot is to the widest landing area.  I won't hit driver if the pin is up front there because I have found it hard to keep the 50 ward wedge close to the front pin.

TD, go into your "Way back machine."

Driver on how many holes at E.G.B.M.H.H.G.C.?

http://www.ci.stamford.ct.us/EGaynorBrennanGolfCourse/CourseMap.htm

Probably some 400 foot crop circles out there...

just curious???

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Killer James

Thanks for your passionate defence of the driver and the right to hit 320yds 14 times in your round.

Your psychopathic nickname suits your swashbunkling style – especially condemning the weak and feeble to march the gangplank by forcing them to make a carry of 260yds.  

In your next life you will be condemned to play the golf course from hell where you will be asked to carry 330yds over flames 18 times – with your putter. !

And just to make you suffer a little more you will be expected to play double or quits on a 19th hole of 66 yards long with your driver !

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Tom

Great point.

It’s true the turning points of routing lines have been repeated again and again by modern golf course architects to the point of standardisation.

In turn the golfer has learnt to expect that there is a generous landing area for a driver stroke from the tee.

If hazards start appearing in these landing areas one often hears the criticism « it’s not fair - hazards shouldn’t punish good shots ».

Altering the distances of the turning points not only adds variety to the routing but gives much better oppurtunity to adapt the course to the existing terrain  - as the bearded guys did in Scotland once upon a time a long time ago

[Tom_Doak]

JWK:  I never hit driver on any hole at E. Gaynor Brennan (formerly known as Hubbard Heights) because I couldn't hit a driver to save my life when I was 15 or 20 years old.  That was before technology and Jack Nicklaus was the only guy on the planet who could hit driver well.  I always used my trusty 3-wood then; whereas today I never even think about it.

And you were talking about #15 at Charlotte Golf Links, weren't you?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

TD -

#15 it was. - Downhill 320 yards narrows near the green with the fescue right.

Hitting driver at EGBMHHGC is liable to getting someone on another fairway drilled.

JWK

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom

Great point.

It’s true the turning points of routing lines have been repeated again and again by modern golf course architects to the point of standardisation.

In turn the golfer has learnt to expect that there is a generous landing area for a driver stroke from the tee.

If hazards start appearing in these landing areas one often hears the criticism « it’s not fair - hazards shouldn’t punish good shots ».

Altering the distances of the turning points not only adds variety to the routing but gives much better oppurtunity to adapt the course to the existing terrain  - as the bearded guys did in Scotland once upon a time a long time ago

Is there any evidence that Ross and others varied their turn points from course to course at the same general time frame?

One problem with moving them around is that contractors and surveyors sometimes think you have made a mistake and move them "where they should be."  Its still best, IHMO, to leave them at some standard point.  If you can't figure out that the land calls for some other logical landing point, then you aren't really trying very hard.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Killer James

Thanks for your passionate defence of the driver and the right to hit 320yds 14 times in your round.

Your psychopathic nickname suits your swashbunkling style – especially condemning the weak and feeble to march the gangplank by forcing them to make a carry of 260yds.  

In your next life you will be condemned to play the golf course from hell where you will be asked to carry 330yds over flames 18 times – with your putter. !

And just to make you suffer a little more you will be expected to play double or quits on a 19th hole of 66 yards long with your driver !

Exactly JC-S!!!  Now you're getting the Hades that I suffer through.

It's about choice, not forced lay-ups.  If I feel like losing five bucks (or 1 ProVx)  by taking a gamble at a long-shot, I know the risks going in.  But force me to Chicken-Stick it all day long, and I'll find another game.  Now that's just me.  Comdemning the thoroughbred to plow fields with 2 iron/4 iron just is cruelty to animals.  The 2 iron/4 Iron off of every tee is an excellent strategy for me in medal play (And a slow, agonizing death), but it not as fun as a having a partner in the fairway and slugging away in match play (Fast Death or glory).  Isn't golf supposed to be fun?



"condemning the weak and feeble to march the gangplank by forcing them to make a carry of 260yds."

JC-S:  Is there no joy in trying a shot that you can not execute?  I also said 250 from tips/200 from member's tees.  Surely that is not too far to ask the average player.


"In your next life you will be condemned to play the golf course from hell where you will be asked to carry 330yds over flames 18 times – with your putter. ! "

JC-S:  Bring it on.  I used to bash putter off of the pine straw out of the forests 200 yards with no problem until I had about 14 degrees of loft on it.  Now I use driver off of the deck for the same effect.  330 yards with the putter is TOO much to hope for.  But we do have a use in the netherworld for those lost souls who feel compelled to take drivers out of stupid neandrethals' hands:  Fetching the balls from the flames in the 330 yard chasm so that we can endlessly retee!!!   Both of our Sisyphean tasks will occupy our time quite nicely?  ;>)



"And just to make you suffer a little more you will be expected to play double or quits on a 19th hole of 66 yards long with your driver ! "

JC-S:  And having hit onto every square inch of our 160 acre property by foolishly bashing driver, I have that 66 yard shot with the driver in spades.  Driver Punched with a 33% swing with either a trap draw or a cut forces you to learn the almost unimaginable.  After last year's club championship, one of our professionals came up to me after my demoralizing defeat on the 18th hole and said, "Mr. Keever, you've given me great hope that I can make par from anywhere!"  Small, but tender solace indeed.

So the moral of the story children is:  Hit Driver - Learn a Short Game.  

Or, while the meek might inherit the earth, they'll have no fun playing as drones, but chicks dig the long ball.  

Or, try the impossible once in awhile - it might work.

Going to the Driving range with only my putter...

XOXOX

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Jeff,

I was thinking further back than Ross - more Old bearded Tom Morris.

I don’t think that having a standard turning point to avoid problems with the contractor or surveyor a particlarly good reason for not having varied turning point distances.

I would agree that the turning point on the plan is a rough indication of the landing area and the golfer will match his shot to suit his game and choose his own « turning point ».

As a matter of interest have you any good examples of « Lay-up » holes on any of your courses – and if so what was the reasoning behind it ?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Jeff,

I was thinking further back than Ross - more Old bearded Tom Morris.

I don’t think that having a standard turning point to avoid problems with the contractor or surveyor a particlarly good reason for not having varied turning point distances.

I would agree that the turning point on the plan is a rough indication of the landing area and the golfer will match his shot to suit his game and choose his own « turning point ».

As a matter of interest have you any good examples of « Lay-up » holes on any of your courses – and if so what was the reasoning behind it ?

JC-S -

Agreed.  OTM as Keeper of the green at TOC ceratinly has influence, but let's face it, outside of #17 which has a "Turning Point", most of the holes there are kill it and don't go right.  The first defense is that the further left you chicken out or snap hook it, the tougher approach shot awaits, and #2, all of the low points are difficult bunker recoveriess.  

The Old Course - So wide open, so many choices - a great course for us both.

In regards to #15 at WFW, the persimmons used to be just short of the stream.  No 2 iron's the forced lay-up for the flat lie.  The real teeth of this hole is the dramatic back to front sloping green.  Do NOT Shortside yourself here!!!

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Killer Joe

While the neanderthals are plowing up the course, massacering the animals and frightening the children – and condemned to dumping Pro VI’s into the fiery pit –

I’ll try some creative golf by pulling out my mashie niblick from the tee and pitching it on to a passing white cloud from where my ancient gutta percha will gently be directed down a shining rainbow onto the undulating 18th green.

Then to the sounds of harps and trumpets with my hickory shafted putting cleek my Nirvana shall be fulfilled.

Could this be the 18th Hole at Winged Foot – « Revelations » – also apparently a Lay-Up hole ?l

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Methinks that you have me all wrong...

I am about freeing the masses from thinking inside the box of the fairway...

What could be more creative than Mickelson's lobs, Tiger's carves and yesterday, Petterson's chps?

If you are looking for cloud's, come to the NYC area, and you will have plentyto choose from!

The best lay-up at WFW was Billy Casper laying up all four days in 1959 at the par 3 3rd hole and making 4 pars en route to victory.  It was his choice...

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

And just to tidy up this thread here’s yet another Lay-Up hole described on the US Open Web Site. This could be the cloud hole –« Billows ».

Quote :-
Winged Foot
Hole 11 « Billows »
This short par 4 will be a layup off the tee short of the left drive zone bunker.  Short iron approaches will be used to this relatively docile putting green.  Two well-executed shots will give players a realistic chance of birdie after coming off the difficult stretch of holes eight through 10.

That’s three Lay up Holes for the US Open 2006 and if Billy Casper was playing make it 4.

Eat your heart out Old Tom Morris.

[Brian Noser]

11 is only a lay up because of the open rough. the fairway does not end here you have the option to hit driver not smart but you still can.

[David Ober]

First of all, I am NOT a long hitter by today's standards. I carry the ball 240ish, but I hit low, running drives, and my total distance is usually 265 - 275.

That said, I HATE when architects take the driver out of my (or any other player's) hands on a consistent basis. Go ahead and narrow the fairway, or set up a cross hazard at 255 or even 265 that has to be carried, but do NOT simply grow the round at 250 to force me to lay up. That's just lazy architecture and/or greenskeeping.

[Brent Hutto]

Go ahead and narrow the fairway, or set up a cross hazard at 255 or even 265 that has to be carried, but do NOT simply grow the round at 250 to force me to lay up. That's just lazy architecture and/or greenskeeping.

How about a steady diet of doglegs? Would you have the same reaction to a course with three or four dogleg-rights and three or four dogleg-lefts at various distance, including short doglegs where driver runs out of room around the corner?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

David Ober is the newest member of Air America...

Car 54 (Shivas) where are you?

Brett -

You have some of the most intelligent posts that I rerad on this site.  I love Colonial that forces you to play driver with elan.  Shaping the bombed tee shot should be such a success that the rest of the group concedes a Bomb around the corner to 40 yards at #3 of the Horrible Horseshoe as a gimme birdie, lest you sink the skimmed sand wedge for a duece.

AND WHY AREN'T THERE MORE 270 YARD PAR THREES TO RIVAL PRE-1932 230's?!?!?

It's breakfast time across the pond JC-S, Have we taken bacon off of the diet?  (Great thread - Thanks for thinking!!!)

JWK

JWK

[Doug Siebert]

Fair comment.

I understand the general thrust of your arguments that, the choice should not be removed and, generally I would agree with the « philosophy of multiple choice ».
However arguing the case for penal design the exception can go a long way to help prove the rule.

In the UK – confining myself to some well known scottish courses where « lay up » hazards from the Tee occur by chance rather than design.

North Berwick Nr. 1  - lay up with an iron to avoid a ditch in a valley.

Carnoustie’s Nr. 17 under certain wind conditions Barry’s Burn comes into play restricting a full drive.

Prestwick’s Nr. 3 where the Cardinal Bunker under certain wind conditions forces a layup.

With all due respect, John, those are terrible examples!  At least if you are trying to take the driver out of the hand of the longer player to even things up, which your earlier posts seem to indicate is your intent.

I don't know that there's really a compelling reason for me to hit driver on any of those holes even if I was allowed to reload a few times in case my driver found trouble.  On #1 NB, the only reason to hit driver would be to drive the green, and damn you would have to be a lot gutsier and a lot straighter than me to even consider such a thing considering the perfection required of that big fade.  Merely hitting a "good" drive short/left of the green would leave you with an awkward pitch up the hill -- hardly better off then just hitting a 5 iron and a wedge up onto the green as is typical there.

On the Cardinal at Prestwick, again, what would be the gain from hitting it over the Cardinal?  I've played it in the prevailing wind both times, so both times I hit about a 4 iron off tee short of the cardinal and a 7 or 8 iron at the green (with that kind of wind a 220 yard 8 iron is no problem )  So I've never even actually BEEN up on the fairway above the Cardinal so I can't say for sure what the hell is there.  But I doubt you'd have a good view of the green, and it isn't going to be much shorter than hitting at the green from short of the Cardinal, so what's the point of trying to play your drive there even if conditions might allow it?

On Carnoustie's 17th you do gain from hitting driver, the hole is long enough that you don't want to give up too much by laying back.  But that tiny little burn doesn't take the driver out of your hands, lack of confidence in one's ability to hit it solid and know where and how far it is going does!  I think one could find a reasonable line at about any desired distance to miss that burn, and angle in that green isn't particularly important unless you are trying for birdie so it doesn't matter if you have to play on the left edge or right to get your driver to your chosen safe haven.

Basically I don't have a problem with a couple holes taking the driver out of my hands, like one of those desert par 4s where the fairway runs out at 260 and you've got 60 yards of scrub and then more fairway and the green.  But I'd much rather see the driver taken out of my hands for strategic reasons like these holes above.  I may still be free to hit driver on the Cardinal in windless conditions (not that I believe the wind ever stops howling at Prestwick based on my experience!) but I fail to see the reason why I'd do so.  Maybe sometime I'll walk up on the portion of the fairway above the Cardinal to see what's there and I might change my mind about the value of playing one's drive up there

I guess the strategy issue with a driver is different today than it used to be since the driver went from one of the harder clubs in the bag to master to pretty much the easiest, at least in terms of making decent contact.  But directional control is still an issue for many of us, and moreso for the longer hitter, so I'd rather hit a middle iron short of the Cardinal and a long iron to the green in windless conditions than hit a driver up on that plateau (and worry about going through the fairway, or hooking it, or missing it right and falling short of the plateau...) even if it means I hit a couple clubs less into the green.  Just not worth it.  If you say the Cardinal is "taking the driver out of my hands" I guess I can live with a lot of holes like that.  Its definitely more interesting than holes where there's desert, or a bunch of rough, or a big lake that takes the driver of my hands without any interesting strategy other than "just hit it shorter than xxx yards".

[Doug Siebert]

I think one of the main reasons you see fewer par-4's where you don't want to hit driver today, is because of the standardization in the way holes are drawn and staked.

Nearly every architect draws his holes with a "turning point" or "landing area" at 800 feet (or 850, or 900), based on where he thinks a player will wind up with his driver from the back tee.  This then becomes the "landing area" and while some may tighten the landing area at that spot, few would consider locating it on a severe slope or turning the fairway in front of it or making the fairway disappear completely at 800 feet.

If you drew an 800 foot mark on the 17th at Crystal Downs you would be chipping from there to the green, because the hole is only 311 yards.

Maybe we should draw our short par-4's with a 600- or 700-foot tee shot to reinforce the idea of inviting people to hit an iron off the tee.  I do think it's a great idea to have a couple of holes like that, but I still try to design them so that the long-hitting narcissist can try to hit driver at his own peril.

Tom,

I really think you ought to do that -- if you are designing a hole where the best percentage play is with an iron, it should be designed for an iron shot off the tee.  I still would like the chance to take a crack at a driver if I'm foolish or confident enough to do so, however.

IMHO, the best short par 4s are those where if you asked me on the first tee whether I was going to try to drive it or not and I couldn't tell you the answer.  It just depends on the conditions and how in control of my driver I feel that day.  So I prefer not to see such holes in the first 4 because I haven't yet figured out whether my driver is friend or foe that day!

Holes with a fixed strategy of always wanting to hit an iron or always wanting to bust a driver are going to be rated a bit lower in my mind, though I realize that its a bit of an arbitrary/personal thing since just because I feel like a hole is always a driver every time doesn't mean that others would agree!

[David Ober]

Go ahead and narrow the fairway, or set up a cross hazard at 255 or even 265 that has to be carried, but do NOT simply grow the round at 250 to force me to lay up. That's just lazy architecture and/or greenskeeping.

How about a steady diet of doglegs? Would you have the same reaction to a course with three or four dogleg-rights and three or four dogleg-lefts at various distance, including short doglegs where driver runs out of room around the corner?

I would much prefer a steady diet of doglegs to holes where the fairway ends at 240 yards ... just because.

At least with a dogleg, you can try to cut it by going over it, or, at the very least, shape your tee ball to take advantage of the shape of the hole...

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

JC-S - No thread hijack - even Darth Vader had a son...


James W. "Threadkiller" Keever
Sr. Member


Posts: 469



Layups are good in Basketball...

  Are short Par 4's the most intricate to design?
« on: Today at 01:04:57am »      

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Taking the driver out of my cold dead hands" thread has gotten the gorilla thinking.  (After all, I'am sick of bananas, and the female gorillas don't want to play -they kept telling me next time/lay-up, etc...)

Are short par 4's the hardest for execution because if there aren't enough hazards, they are summarily dismissed are "Too easy/birdie holes"?  Like Johnny Cash, are architects in this distance-obscessed era forced to "Walk the Line"?

Who wouldn't want to create "The Burning Ring of Fire"?

PVGC's 8th or Riviera's #10 make so much out of so little.

JWK

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Good morning Darth,

Having just finished my porridge I see it’s time to continue the crusade to disarm the infidels of their drivers and carry on the hopeless search for the Holy Grail.

I see you’ve made your first Lay-Up in that you’ve changed your nickname by deed poll from "Threadkiller"  to NHD – I assume the last initial is for Driver and not Desease.

I have to got out and kill a few dragons but I’ll be back to contribute to your thought provoking threads. If Johnny Cash plays anything as well Willy Nelson we’re talking about a short Par 23 aren’t we ?

St. John

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Doug

Thanks for confirming these wonderful holes as lay up holes.

I think if you read my posts you’ll see that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make – there’s is no point in playing a driver here – they are lay up holes – from the tee.

Carnoustie is really dependant on the wind conditions but over the years has made a few players leave their driver in the bag.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

St. John -

Before you go off tilting at windmills on Rosalina, I wanted you to know that I have only Dragon breath this morning...

In regards to NHD, I am now changing to LHN which is is courtesy of Mr. Doak which was pulled from this thread = "long-hitting narcissist".

The question of the day:

What has 40 eyes, 20 teeth and green hair?  (Hint:  It's not me with a hangover).  
A:  The front row at a Willy Nelson concert!  (TaDa!  Arms akimbo with straw boater in left hand...)

In regards to coming over to the dark side, you should know that while I'll be driving the short driving snakes out of N. Boston today, I'll be thinking of all of the times that I could have made my second shots much longer into the wind.

Your cause is noble, but as with Alan Robertson, time is forcing adaptation.  Might I invite you to try a customized 45" graphite shafted driver with a perfect launch angle to go with the apple (ProV1) that I am offering you?

Off to a sausage, Egg and Cheese McMuffin...

JWK

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