[TEPaul]

Troy:

A three point turn?

I'm sure our super knows what that means but I don't. If you started on the outside right of the fairway, for instance, wouldn't you turn gradually and go back down on the inside of the other half etc, etc, etc to keep the turning as gradual as possible?

As an historicaly note, about a year ago I was talking to Matt Shaeffer of Merion about the old up and back gang mowers and I believe he said he noticed some bulging out in certain areas near approaches on the old aerials and he figured that must have been the old gangs swinging wide near the approaches to go back the other way on the other half of the fairway. He also said he noticed on some of the old aerials all kinds of interesting mow paths from the gangs between fairways on Merion West. He figured the old gang operators just weren't getting off and disengaging the reels.

[Marc Haring]

Tom

A three point turn is exactly as it is in a car. You reverse back, go forward, reverse back, gently turning all the time and your then in position for your next cut. Saves one sharp turn that will tear the grass.

From the south west UK. I’ve been mowing up and back for years now. In fact, this year I have taken yet another step ‘backwards’ and have sharpened up the old trailed gang mowers and I go out mowing with them. They are about thirty years old but are quicker, more fuel efficient and personally I just love doing the job first thing in the morning or late in the evening when there’s no golf about. Sure you don’t get the cuts per yard and we have to mow at ¾ inch but they rip through rye grass better than anything.  

[TEPaul]

One of the concerns of our super is the wear from turning around some of the sharper angles of fairway bunkering. But I would think the diagonal or multi stripe pattern wouldn't solve that problem---perhaps make it even worse than the up and back pattern----eg you're doing a lot more turning with the diagonal stripe pattern compared to the up and back---correct?

[Craig Sweet]

Tom...as you can see from the photo's most bunkers are rounded...and most have a "collar" of deeper grass around them....I know this isn't the case with all bunkers....

My experience is you do less damage mowing in this manner than you do when you mow diagonally across...

[Steve Curry]

Adam,

I first heard of this from your course from the 95 Open.  How do you mow approaches?  The USGA has done this at Salem for the Seniors and at the Orchards for the Women.  I wonder if its modern tournament use stems from Shinny in 95?

Marc,

So do you mow exclusively with the gangs?  I was thinking about going the same route but was worried about the long grass in the subtle imperfections.

Steve

[Joe Hancock]

Marc,

So do you mow exclusively with the gangs?  I was thinking about going the same route but was worried about the long grass in the subtle imperfections.

Steve

Steve,

If I may interject....

I mow fairways with a gang mower. But, I follow up with a lightweight around the edges and my par 3's. I think the cut of the gang (leaving varying lengths of grass in the subtleties) adds a little twist that challenges the golfer to read his or her lie when the get to the shot at hand.

Joe

[Marc Haring]

Steve.

We have a lot of long grass in the subtle imperfections but I’ve managed to call it character. There are a couple of short holes where the gangs can’t get to and we mow Mondays with a ride-on as well but otherwise it’s exclusively gangs. A tractor and a set of gangs cost about the same as a  standard 7 unit ride on and they will last about twenty years instead of what, five? Also no hydraulic leaks!

Other downsides are the need for regular bed knife to reel adjustment, skilled judgement of the gang width and also the fact that the tractor tyres can flatten the grass before it’s cut especially when wet. But for my needs, which is a mid range, high usage 27 hole commercially run course on 300 acres, they really fit the bill.

[TEPaul]

Thanks very much to all the respondents. I stopped over at Aronimink tonight and I believe I learned every single thing one needs to know about the up and back fairway cut in my region from Aronimink's John Goesselin. What he's doing in that vein I'm sure anyone would envy.  

[Steve Curry]

Mark,

Great photo.


Tom,  Tell us more about what you learned.

Steve

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

The up and back cut is gaining more prevalence.  From an aesthetic point of view, it is wonderful camoflage, especially on the southern courses where the downgrain is hidden & merges with the fairway to make them appear smaller.

I am surprised that the clubs with resources haven't gone to gang mowing from green to tee to minimize roll.

The diamond cut, while visually striking, does not meet my eye on a game that is played in nature.

When mowing in circles, a la a zamboni at an ice rink, is the tendency to unintentionally bring the fairways in from the hazards to speed mowing times?

JWK

[Anthony_Nysse]

Besides that fact that Muirfield Village is using furrowed rakes in the bunkers, Paul Latshaw, CGCS, has also changed the mowing pattern inthe fairways. MV used to triplex their fairways in a checkboard pattern-Upon viewing this year's tournament, everything is mowed from tee to green in one direction, actually HELPING players get more ball roll. I don't care for that look at Muirfield as I don't believe that it's the "type" of course that warrents that style mowing pattern. Comments....?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Tony -

With all the rain that Muirfield Village gets, the tee to green pattern wont help the boys a bit.  

I noticed Secession uses the up and back fairway cut.  Although I have been to HT 12 consecutive years for the Heritage, I have never seen Long Cove.  Do you use the same pattern.  

JWK

[John Gosselin]

Anthony, Paul is mowing one way for agronomic reasons first. The playability and the aesthetics are merely a byproduct.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  What would those argronomic reasons be-Turning in the rough? Just a guess....
 HT usually only mows on angles, but that's also resort golf and that's more appealing to most. We mow every direction here at LCC, left to right, right to left, up and down, dark and light and even side to side. We do this to reduce any grain in the fairways.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Adam_Jessie]

Criag Sweet -  You are right it is saving on fuel and labor. The time to mow our tees was shortened by almost forty minutes for two people.

Steve Curry - Looking at all the old photos from the club that mowing pattern has been in place since the clubs begining. Mr. Paul was correct when he spoke about the gang mowers producing that mowing pattern. Also with our course witht the movement we have in the fairways it would be almost imposssible to produce quality stripes on some our our holes, especially #9 and 10.

Thanks,

Adam Jessie
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club

[TEPaul]

"Tom,  Tell us more about what you learned.
Steve:

SteveC:

I'd be glad to.

The first thing I learned is if one asks Ron Prichard to be extremely honest about one's golf course before taking him out to see it, one can be damn sure he will get some very honest opinions.  

We wanted to do the up and back cut, or I did a while ago, but with all the other things going on that got sort of lost in the mix. Ron certainly put that idea back on the table and that's why I started this thread.

I learned a few things from this thread but for some details and mechanics of how to do this I learned all I think we need to know from John Goesslin of Aronimink the other night.

I just went over there the other evening when they were mowing and prepping the course for a tournament.

My super was primarily concerned about damage to the turf turning around bunkers and such.

John explained that he's doing the up and back for agronomic reasons and surely one of those is the fact that he doesn't need to turn app 200 times in the rough with the diagaonal cut pattern.

I guess my super thought with the up and back he'd have to mow around the bunkers a few times but John just goes right at his bunkers straight, picks up the mowers and travels around the first cut and drops them back down in a straight line on the other side.

Then apparently a no tread (smooth tire) mower makes the clean up pass on the outsides.

John also has a series of dots on the edge of the fairways into the fairway/approach transition that can vary the point of turn back by maybe 10-15 yards.

He also varies the up and back sides frequently, as well as using the "samboni" method of wide turning at the approach end.

I'm not sure there is anything more to know. I know my club will accept this as soon as I mention this will be a time, manpower and cost savings but the added good news is it more agronomically more friendly and of course on old courses it just looks so much more traditional.

On another note, John Goesslin has Aronimink looking about as good (firm and fast) as any golf course needs to be for any reason or event. Hopefully that club knows how lucky they are to have him. I saw one of their bigwigs somewhere in the last few weeks and I asked him if he realized that and he just said. "Oh yeah, I sure do." He's become one of my top "go to" guys for any maintenance question or advice at all.

To me collaboration is the name of the game. My super and John will be speaking about this.

That's what I learned.

And I also learned, once again, how little I know about maintenance and agronomy. But I have the tel #s of about fifty great supers in my cell phone.---and I use them  

I think my respect for really good golf course superintendency has frankly just about matched or probably passed my respect for some of the best architects I know.

You guys who are really great supers are just amazing to me, and the ones who truly understand the nuances and particularly the histories and evolution of golf architecture and "playability" too are definitely the most valuable asset any club can have, by about a country mile.  

 

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

Thanks, Good stuff.



Does anyone know did Shinnecock revive this cut by doing it for the Open in 95?  I seem to recall that this was news?

Best,
Steve

[TEPaul]

Steve:

Acording to Shinnecock's Adam Jessie Shinnecock has always, always, always used the up and back fairway mowing method. I've been there so infrequently over the decades I just don't remember that or not. Adam should know though---that guy is really into architecture and is very good at it. He had probably the most to do with the bunkers.

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

No, I know Shinnecock has always done that, my point, question is were they the cause of the trend by having it cut that way for the Open in 95?  I remember being surprised that they were not cross cutting??

Steve

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
No, I know Shinnecock has always done that, my point, question is were they the cause of the trend by having it cut that way for the Open in 95?  I remember being surprised that they were not cross cutting??
Steve"

Steve:

I don't know about that but if I were to hazard a guess (or is it to "through the green" a guess?) I might say the trend started with the popularity of restorations in the last decade or so.

There's no question that when architects and clubs look at old pre-WW2 aerials of their courses all they will ever see is that old up and back fairway pattern. That's just the only way those old gang mowers could do it, I guess.

Even if they could've done the cross cut or diagonal pattern can you imagine what it would do to the roughs trying to turn one of those things about 50-60 times per hole in the rough lines? It would likely make a total mess of the rough.

Mark Michaud who is a helluva super thought he was into a good thing when he went from Pebble to Shinnecock before the Open there. But little did Mark know that despite how rich those Shinnecock members may be they are the cheapest people on earth with their golf course. Immediately following the Open they told Mark to get rid of all that expensive mowing equipment they had going into the Open and go out and pick up one or two old 1940s tractors and some old used gangs. So even if Mark wanted to do the cross-cut fairways he isn't able to now.  

[Brian Jones]

I am a new guy so someone let me know if this is "thread jacking".  Does anyone know (or care to speculate) how WF's fairways will be mown for the Open?  I recall in '97 both Congressional's and WF's fairways were mown by hand.  I wondered if the PGA had WF's mown that way in response to the USGA doing Congressional that way.  

At any rate, I wish my club would use the "up and back"  and will ask our supers about this.

[Dan Herrmann]

We just did this cut for the first time at French Creek and the look was so classic.  Gil was out yesterday PM and loved the look.

Now all we need to do is convince our super that it's the right way to go in the future.

[TEPaul]

Guys, you want to get your clubs to use the up and back fairway cut? Tell them it's cheaper, less man hours and better for the agronomy---because all that is true. If that doesn't convince them I just don't know what to say except maybe pull out your .45 the way I do at my club if I'm not getting my way.

[Joe Hancock]

..... pull out your .45 the way I do at my club if I'm not getting my way.

Tom,

Is that length or diameter?

Joe

[Steve Curry]

For the mowing thread's sake.  I wanted to see the picture of Marc's course too.  Mine is whitish and icey at the moment.  I can believe in climate change at the moment, but global warming, not so much.
Steve

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