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Glenn Spencer

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2006, 01:57:44 PM »
John,

I think the part about the fees is interesting. Why am I am I able to play in an Ohio Amateur, is it because I paid 30 beansto have a handicap, do you happen to know what percentage of that goes to the OGA? I think someone should be charging something around here. We have two Senior tournaments for the love of God. I love the idea of joining forces with the other sections, the longest drive you could possibly have is 90 minutes. I see that you have a match play for juniors, but you are a local association. I just wonder how Indiana can pull it off so beautifully and Ohio can't. This is one of the reasons I hoped Longaberger would be worth a damn, somewhere public to play this stuff.
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JohnV

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2006, 03:10:50 PM »
Glenn,

Every association does things differently, but most tournaments come about because either the Executive Director, the Executive Committee or the Competition Committee thinks it would be a good idea and convinces the others.  So, if you want a tournament, you need to convince one of those three groups.  The other way it can happen is if a course offers itself for a new competition.

Just sitting there and saying, "Why can't we be like the other guys?" won't get it done.

Our junior match play came about because a gentleman in the 1970s wanted to make it happen, convinced his club to host the first one and the association to do it.

Associations try different events and some work better than others.  Net events are a big deal in the west, but not so big back east.  We tried a net four-ball and it died after about 3 years from lack of interest.

As for funding for the Ohio GA, I don't know how they do it.  In Pennsylvania, a club has to choose to join the PA GA before their members can play in the events.  That costs about $200 a year. There have been cases of individuals paying for the club's membership so that they can play.

The WPGA lets anyone play in our individual events who lives in western PA and has a handicap or who has a handicap with one of our clubs.

There are associations such as Georgia where your primary residence and address for tax purposes must be Georgia in order to play in their events (sorry, no out of state Augusta members allowed.)
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JohnV

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2006, 03:15:45 PM »
One reason that some associations don't like match play is that the players don't like it.  They can't schedule their life very well.  The Oregon Golf Association's Amateur is a match play preceded by a two-day stroke play qualifier which starts on a Monday.  So, you know you have two days off, but if you go all the way, it is a 6-day event.  Therefore, you have to plan on taking the entire week off work, possibly get a hotel etc.

The PA Match Play is a 3-day invitation tourney and even it has trouble getting the field filled.  They had to go pretty far down their list of players to get 32 guys willing to come to Pittsburgh last week (the guys in Philly don't like to travel much.)
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TEPaul

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2006, 08:45:51 AM »
"The USGA also funded the Keystone Public GA when GAP and WPGA wouldn't let public golfers in.  Now we both do and we have this silly competition going on all the time for members."

John:

The USGA funded the Keystone Golf Association?

I didn't know that. I thought all the USGA did for the Keystone Public Golf Association was give them a franchise to provide the GHIN system to their golfers. We charged Keystone $1 for their players to play in our events and now they've told us they can't pay that and they want to pay us .50 per player. Obviously they're losing members. This public player thing in Pa is interesting but essentially I'm for treating all players in Pa the same and charging them the same. I don't see why anyone needs to subsidize golfers because they say they're on the public side of golf. If they're going to act like second class citizens eventually they'll probably get treated like second class citizens. What we need in Pa is equality across the board for all players who want to play tournament golf.

As for competition amongst golf associations, as long as a state has a number of golf associations who are GHIN handicap service providers there will always be competition amongst those associations for clubs and golfers. The only way I can see to change that is to centralize the GHIN system in the state and that's not going to happen because the various competing associations aren't going to allow it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 08:49:55 AM by TEPaul »
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TEPaul

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2006, 09:08:44 AM »
Rich:

The USGA isn't in the business of providing "largesse" to golf associations with their GHIN System.

My understanding is that it costs the USGA around $6 million per year to provide the GHIN System. Their per player fee of around $3.75 is supposed to cover that USGA cost.

Do I think the USGA should charge that? Well, I guess my answer would have to be both yes and no.

I say yes because I certainly understand why they charge that---again, it's to basically cover their annual cost of providing the GHIN System.

I say no because I feel the USGA both could and should underwrite the entire cost of the GHIN System as a service for the good of the game. If they did that, we, the state and regional golf associations could reduce our fee to golfers and member clubs and provide the same handicap service for theoretically $3.75 less. This too I view as for the good of the game.

Unfortunately this type of suggestion seems to freak out the USGA and the state and regional associations because of the fear of anti-trust and restraint of trade laws suits.

Would state and regional golf associations providing a USGA subsidized handicap service get sued by "for profit" handicap service providers? Sure they would, they have anyway but they've never lost a case and I doubt they ever would.

Why? Because essentially they're doing something for the good of the game and they're really not profiting from it.

But restraint of trade litigation is pretty tricky business.

However, I think the hallmark and precedent case in this area happened a few years ago in New Jersey where a for profit handicap service provider, Handicom, sued the NJ State Golf Association (a GHIN handicap association) for monopolizing their district.

The judge basically said:

"I don't care if the NJ Golf Association has 99.9% of the handicap business in its region, I do not see that as a monopolistic practice constituting restraint of trade against Handicom.".

When the Handicom lawyers asked the judge how 99.9% of the market could not constitute monopoly and restraint of trade, the judge said:

"Because if you (Handicom) want to provide your handicap service with no restraint at all do it over the INTERNET BECAUSE THE INTERNET IS FREE."

Interesting situation and an interesting legal precedent and legal apparent loophole, in my opinion.  ;)

I say the best situation is to provide the American golfer with the best handicap system possible for as little money as possible. If the USGA can provide that by subsidizing their GHIN Handicap System, then hey, that's for the good of the game, isn't it? That enures to the ultimate benefit of the American golfer, right?  ;)

« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 09:15:11 AM by TEPaul »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2006, 10:27:58 AM »
Rich Goodale & Glenn,

It's far more complicated then you think.

In the Met area, you have the following organizations competing for golf courses.

The USGA
The MGA
The NJSGA
The NYSGA
The CTSGA
The Westchester GA
The Long Island GA
NJ PGA
NY PGA
CT PGA
Westchester PGA
Long Island PGA

These associations have qualifiers and tournaments.

And, with the exception of the PGA, they each have men's and women's, amateurs, juniors, seniors, mid-amateurs and Opens.  The PGA has weekly pro-ams.

Course availability is limited.
Fewer and fewer clubs want to give up their facilities for two to four or more days.

In addition, almost every club hosts charity outings or special events.

Getting a golf course, getting a good golf course is almost always through the efforts of special people who take the time and effort to convince their clubs to host an event.

Sometimes they just want to give back to the game and other times, they want to showcase their club.

I used to be actively involved in getting tournament sites for a few organizations in the Met area.

Occassionally, at a qualifier or at a tournament a contestant would complain about the gofl course, for a variety of reasons.
So, I'd ask them, "how about hosting this even at your club next year, can you arrange that ?"  All their big talk and complaining went out the window because they knew they had neither the clout, or their club didn't have the inclination to host an event.

So, when I hear somebody complaining about course sites or tournaments, I ask, "what have you done to try to improve the situation by securing sites ?"

As TEPaul said, get involved or get off the issue, or something like that.
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ForkaB

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2006, 11:23:33 AM »
Tom P and John V

Thanks for the thoughtful and helpful eluciations.

Pat M

When you say (probably rightly so).....

"Fewer and fewer clubs want to give up their facilities for two to four or more days."

....isn't this an indictment of those clubs?  I personally would not want to belong to a GOLF club which didn't see the benefit and/or privilege of allowing excellent and/or knowledgeable GOLFERS to test their abilities (and the qualities of the course) a few times every year.

In the old days, thousands would turn out just to watch Braid play Taylor, or Old Tom Morris play Wille Dunn, or even later Locke play whatever American pro wanted to be beaten up that day, and nobody (that I know of) complained about having to cancel his or her Saturday 4-ball......

In the old days, in Golf Clubs the operative word was "Golf."  Today the operative word is "Club."  Thank god that Yankee Stadium is not owned by the "South Bronx Baseball Club"...... :o
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2006, 11:37:05 AM »
Quote from: Glenn Spencer on May 18, 2006, 05:16:08 PM
Not Ohio. I don't have time for that kind of volunteer work and what good could I possibly accomplish anyway?

That statement sums it up for me ... which leaves you with one viable option ... move ...

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"... and I liked the guy ..."

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2006, 11:47:59 AM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on May 20, 2006, 11:23:33 AM

Pat M

When you say (probably rightly so).....

"Fewer and fewer clubs want to give up their facilities for two to four or more days."

....isn't this an indictment of those clubs?  

Yes, and No.

In some cases clubs have full calendars with their events and inter-club events.  When you consider the impact of maintainance programs such as aeration it further limits availability in the peak periods of play, such as Memorial Day through Labor day.

In addition to closing the club to members, thereby losing revenue, the clubs have to staff for these events, hence they lose more money, and that may add to existing financial problems.

If a club hosted a tournament last year it's doubtful that they'll host another one for some time.[/color]

I personally would not want to belong to a GOLF club which didn't see the benefit and/or privilege of allowing excellent and/or knowledgeable GOLFERS to test their abilities (and the qualities of the course) a few times every year.
A FEW TIMES EVERY YEAR ?

I can tell you that that's not going to happen.

In the last 30-40 years that I've been involved with the admission process, I don't think any prospective member ever asked, "how many outside events do you host a year ? " looking for a positive response.[/color]

In the old days, thousands would turn out just to watch Braid play Taylor, or Old Tom Morris play Wille Dunn, or even later Locke play whatever American pro wanted to be beaten up that day, and nobody (that I know of) complained about having to cancel his or her Saturday 4-ball......
Sadly, amateur golf no longer gets the headlines.
And the professional tournaments can occupy a club for a week.

Many, if  not most clubs have several men's member-guests, women's member-guests, mixed member-guests, which occur during the week. Then there's friday and sunday sweetie pie golf, in addition to their regular men's, women's, junior's and senior events.

So, the calendar's are very full.[/color]

In the old days, in Golf Clubs the operative word was "Golf."  Today the operative word is "Club."  Thank god that Yankee Stadium is not owned by the "South Bronx Baseball Club"...... :o

There are very few "golf" clubs in these parts.
Most are country clubs, and as such, golf is another item on the agenda.

I prefer golf clubs, but then again, according to Craig Sweet, I'm insane.

As to Yankee Stadium, I hope you're sitting down.
It won't be there too much longer.
It's being torn down and a new stadium erected across the way.

Sadly, tradition, history and the things we love about the game are going the way of the dinosaurs[/color]



« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 11:49:02 AM by Patrick_Mucci »
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JohnV

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2006, 03:25:38 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on May 20, 2006, 08:45:51 AM
"The USGA also funded the Keystone Public GA when GAP and WPGA wouldn't let public golfers in.  Now we both do and we have this silly competition going on all the time for members."

John:

The USGA funded the Keystone Golf Association?

I may be wrong, but I believe that they did provide some funds for their startup.  I'll double check that next week.
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2006, 02:51:27 AM »
Patrick,

Someone with your lofty I.Q.  would certainly want to know the difference between then and than.

Here it is- I lose more than I win at craps.

If that is the case, then maybe I should try another game.

Is one only allowed to complain about something they can change?
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TEPaul

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2006, 08:59:58 AM »
"Is one only allowed to complain about something they can change?"

Glenn:

What you obviously need to do is learn how to make a distinction between the game of craps and a state golf association. I hope it's occured to you that there is a difference and a fairly significant one at that.  ;)

Or alternatively, ask yourself the question---does it take a series of dedicated volunteers to make the game of craps operate as well as it should?
 
 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 09:02:27 AM by TEPaul »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf Association Failure
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2006, 01:45:15 PM »
Quote from: Glenn Spencer on May 21, 2006, 02:51:27 AM
Patrick,

Someone with your lofty I.Q.  would certainly want to know the difference between then and than.

Here it is- I lose more than I win at craps.

If that is the case, then maybe I should try another game.

Is one only allowed to complain about something they can change?

Glenn ,

I'm very adaptable and I have been trying my best to lower my standards in an effort to attain yours.  I just don't think that I can get that low.

As to your comments with respect to my tyops and grammar, I guess desperate men do desperate things. and absent any substance to your posts, your last resort, the actions of a desperate man, is to try to deflect attention from your inadequacies to my tyops and grammar.

Oh my goodness, I've mispelled an occasional word.
Try to think in terms of substance, not form, when you read my posts.  Or, is someone reading them for you ?

My tyops and grammar will improve, sadly, your IQ will not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 01:45:53 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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