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Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2006, 11:08:45 PM »
JES II,

GCGC hasn't added substantive length to the golf course as PV has done over the years.

GCGC doesn't have the luxury of land, save for a few holes like # 6 and # 8.

All other holes are mostly landlocked.

As to the multiple sets of tees, I don't know the answer.
For years GCGC only had one set of markers, then went to two.

The Course Rating on the scorecard I have when I played there last summer shows 74.2 from the back and 72.4 from the regular and the Slope shows 154 from the back and 151 from the regular.

The yardages are 6999 par 70 and 6532 par 70.

GCGC is about 6911 par 73
« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 11:09:29 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2006, 09:27:04 AM »
Pat,

Did Pine Valley move entire tee complexes to make holes longer? Or just lengthen holes at the Championship and possibly some regular tee levels?

I pulled the rating and slope numbers from the USGA site. That's as far as I'm able to go in terms of confirmation. Does that scorecard happen to list the bogey rating?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2006, 12:40:24 PM »
As always a fascinating discussion between mssrs Mucci and Paul..always a delight!

Is it possible ...just possible that Crump, Colt, at al were so brilliant that they created a masterpiece for all abilities of golfers?
I personally would like to think so...I love Pine Valley..to me it is the perfect example of what a golf course should be..but when I play it, I do not get the impression that it is designed with only those playing in  thetournament {Crump Cup} in mind.
{I really do not think as "good" players we are worthy of that privelage..Crump at al designed a golf course and  perhaps thebest one out there..but surely it was for all to enjoy?}
That would somehow diminish the aurra of the place..it is quite simply fantasy golf club..and as such I think is a treat to any golfers..who cares if you shoot 68 or 108...It is PINE  fricking VALLEY!!!!


Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2006, 02:49:03 PM »
Pat,

Did Pine Valley move entire tee complexes to make holes longer?

YES
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Or just lengthen holes at the Championship and possibly some regular tee levels?

They did this as well.
[/color]

I pulled the rating and slope numbers from the USGA site. That's as far as I'm able to go in terms of confirmation. Does that scorecard happen to list the bogey rating?

No, it just lists the ratings from the "back" and "reg" tees.
[/color]

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2006, 03:44:45 PM »

That would somehow diminish the aurra of the place..it is quite simply fantasy golf club..and as such I think is a treat to any golfers..who cares if you shoot 68 or 108...It is PINE  fricking VALLEY!!!!



Michael,

At least as it pertains to my position, (but I think Tom's as well) Pine Valley was not built to exclude higher handicappers, rather it was built to challenge the game of the best players with no regard for accommodating higher handicappers when they mishit a shot. Two very different perspectives in my opinion that Pat is having a difficult time getting his arms around.

To my knowledge, Augusta was designed to challenge the scratch and accommodate the average player. The width is only one component of that. The consequences of missing that width is much more important in determining the architects intentions. At Augusta (to my understanding) the player is challenged by bad angles to certain hole locations when he misses the ideal target by a wide margin. At Pine Valley the player is frequently left with nearly unplayable lies. This hardly seems accommodating to the higher handicapper. Your second to last sentence is the key. You play well enough to shoot 68 out there but for the player that could only hope to break 90 on a good day is going to be subject to scores well into the 100's on most days. Tom PAul has made the point that the higher handicapper have always gotten a sort of pleasure from the torture presented by Pine Valley. That is a long site from accommodation in my mind.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 03:45:52 PM by JES II »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2006, 03:47:55 PM »
Pat,

Which holes did PV lengthen in its entirety, including the very front tees?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2006, 10:34:16 PM »
Pat,

Which holes did PV lengthen in its entirety, including the very front tees?

That's a different question.

The back tee on # 18 was entirely moved.

It was moved to the right and it was made considerably longer with a different angle of attack.

Few, if any courses lengthen their front tees.

PV like so many other courses added length to their back tees.

Are you now suggesting that the lengthening of a golf course isn't true lengthening unless the Ladies, Senior and Regular tees are also lengthened and/or moved ?

# 3, # 7, # 9, # 10, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 18 have all had considerable length added.  Other holes have been lengthened to a lesser degree.

Regular tees that were  lengthened include # 1,
# 3, # 7, # 9, # 14, # 16 and # 18.  Other front tees were lengthened by neglible yardage (less then 10 yards)
[/color]
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 10:40:02 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2006, 10:50:05 AM »
The point of this conversation (as you set it up) is to discuss Pine Valley's design as it pertains to accommdation of higher handicappers.

You have hung your hat on the wide fairways and pictures of a woman playing golf there. I challenged the wide fairway explanation because every course I have seen pictures of from that time had extremely wide (by todays standards) fairways, upwards of 50 - 60 yards wide. Pine Valley has simply retained theirs while the rest of us have narrowed ours.

I then decided to take the tack of what happens when you miss one of the fairways (as higher handicappers tend to do on occassion), and you suggested that it's not all that difficult to hit them anyway. The fact is that each fairway is essentially an island in the midst of very unfavorable conditions, frequently unplayabe other than an attempted blast back to the fairway. In this part of the conversation you suggested that Garden City was more penal than Pine Valley (at least off the tee). Not having experience there I looked for pictures on this site and they did not illustrate the issue very well so I looked on the USGA site for course rating and slope information. The course rating, bogey rating, and slope are all higher at Pine Valley (even though there are discrepencies in GCGC's numbers), and par is three strokes lower.

Now please, your excellence, show me exactly what evidence there is to support your claim, beyond an image of a woman playing golf there so many years ago.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 10:50:29 AM by JES II »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2006, 07:50:09 PM »

The point of this conversation (as you set it up) is to discuss Pine Valley's design as it pertains to accommdation of higher handicappers.

You have hung your hat on the wide fairways and pictures of a woman playing golf there.
[b[[color=green[
NO, that's not true.  There were other factors involved.
I also referenced the success that high handicaps had while playing PV, and the logical reasoning that the golf course would have members who were other then scratch handicap golfers.  And, as a fifth element, an examination of the inherent architectural qualities of the golf course.

I'd say that that's a powerful, if not overwhelming body of evidence to support a point.

You're just in denial with respect to the issue.[/b][/color]

I challenged the wide fairway explanation because every course I have seen pictures of from that time had extremely wide (by todays standards) fairways, upwards of 50 - 60 yards wide.

How would you categorize the fairways at St Andrews at Hastings on the Hudson ?
Certainly  they weren't upwards of 50-60 yards wide.

And, neither were many courses circa 1922.
[/color]

Pine Valley has simply retained theirs while the rest of us have narrowed ours.

That's not true.
Did St Andrews narrow their fairways ?
[/color]

I then decided to take the tack of what happens when you miss one of the fairways (as higher handicappers tend to do on occassion), and you suggested that it's not all that difficult to hit them anyway. The fact is that each fairway is essentially an island in the midst of very unfavorable conditions, frequently unplayabe other than an attempted blast back to the fairway.

The fairways are so wide that missing them is a remote possibility at best.

What you don't want to come to grips with is that what lies at the periphery makes little difference when the fairways are so wide.

In addition, the golf course was mostly void of trees when Crump designed and built it.  The trees were added later, and trees and undergrowth were allowed to grow unchecked vis a vis benign neglect over the intervening years.
[/color]

In this part of the conversation you suggested that Garden City was more penal than Pine Valley (at least off the tee). Not having experience there I looked for pictures on this site and they did not illustrate the issue very well so I looked on the USGA site for course rating and slope information. The course rating, bogey rating, and slope are all higher at Pine Valley (even though there are discrepencies in GCGC's numbers), and par is three strokes lower.

The fact is that finding your ball in the rough at GCGC is a task.  That's not the issue at PV.  In 40+ years of playing there I don't beleive I've ever seen a golfer suffer a lost ball.
In addition, most golfers have free swings and access to the fairway from off the fairway at PV.  Now that may be a function of the caddy policy rather then random luck.

But, at GCGC, when you find your ball in rough one to three feet high, extracting it is almost impossible.

So, in regard to the off fairway penal nature of both courses, I'd have to say that GCGC presents a more penal experience.
[/color]

Now please, your excellence, show me exactly what evidence there is to support your claim, beyond an image of a woman playing golf there so many years ago.

I suppose that pictures of Neil Armstrong walking on the moon were viewed as not being credible by you.

We have wide fairways,
Carries of 100 yards
Women playing the golf course
A membership composed of higher handicap players
The inherent architectural values
High handicap players shooting below handicap scores.

And yet, you maintain that Crump DIDN'T design the golf course to accomodate the higher handicap player.

As I said many posts ago, you just don't get it.
You want to perpetuate the myth that only scratch players can play the golf course.

And, I assert that PV has far more versatility and was created to accomodate the higher handicap golfer, as well as to challenge the championship golfer.
[/color]

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2006, 02:03:41 AM »
Patrick,

I never played St Andrews on Hastings, why is that the only course you referrence?

The success you mention higher handicaps have is isolated to your foursome, I caddied for hundreds of double digit handicappers there. The course was certainly not built with their success in mind.

You state that the fairways are so wide that "missing them is a remote possibility at best". Since we are discussing the higher handicapper, and you obviously only intend that comment to pertain to lower handicapper such as yourself I'll excuse it and move on. If you want to include that comment in this conversation as it pertains to double digit players please feel free but I don't think either of us think it will help your cause. And remember, that's what I'm here for. To help you make this point you're trying so hard to make but cannot quite get over the hump.

As I've said, I cannot comment on GCGC but the USGA (or at least the handicap rating folks) feel that Garden City is 5 - 10 strokes easier relative to par than Pine Valley for the average player. Seems difficult for me to imagine they are alone in that sentiment, but maybe you're right. As far as the caddy policy goes, here's what I can tell you. The caddies are very clearly instructed not to touch the golf ball. If you think they are running their program improperly you should let them know.

Oh my god, now that you brought Neil Armstrong into the equation I have a very clear understanding of your position on this. Obviously Pine Valley was built to accommodate the higher handicapper because if they can play golf on the moon they can play golf anywhere. Obviously the moon accommodates THE AVERAGE PLAYER, doesn't it. come on Pat, back to Earth my friend.

Pat, whether or not the club has higher handicap members has no bearing on this topic whatsoever. You state that Garden City is more penal than Pine Valley, are there any 20 handicaps members at GCGC? Of course there are, it's not always about playing the course ideally suited to your game. That you discount the challenge higher handicap players face when trying to get their drive into the fairway at Pine Valley clearly illustrates your lack of understanding about players of lesser caliber than yourself. Every successful shot, whether it be a drive into the fairway or a well placed lay-up, or a ball onto the green is a relief to the bogey player down there and that has become a large part of the charm of the place. The guy that goes down there to shoot a score will rarely come away successful, the guy that goes down there to enjoy the golf course as it is and hopefully play a handful of holes well is going to enjoy every minute of it even if he also picks up on a few holes.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2006, 03:14:01 AM »
Pat's posting here is surely one of the most absurd I have ever read on GCA. I also think it's part of the reason that so many people, when I travel, ask me, in effect, "what's with those GCA nuts?"

Has anyone here, including Pat Mucci, bothered to even look at the photos in question? For a major indictment, the evidence is simply wrong. First of all, the "evidence" starts with page 54, not 55. Second no woman is actually shown playing golf. There are photos of a single woman, obviously the same woman, seen on the 2nd tee (p. 54) and the 5th tee (p. 56), in front of the 7th green (p. 57, if you squint and look closely) and on the 8th green (p. 58) She's not playing golf. She's standing there, towel (or perhaps a scarf, but probably a towel) draped over her right shoulder, holding a club, facing a man, who is playing golf (at least on the 2nd, 7th and 8th holes, but he's not yet playing on the 5th tee). She's wearing a full-length coat, one which appears to be even heavier than the standard woman's golf garb for the era. At no point is she playing golf. At most, you can conclude she's watching him play golf. He's shown swinging three times. She's never shown playing.

Maybe she's a caddie. Maybe she's taking a walk with him. Maybe she's his mistress and they consummated their affair in "Hell's Half Acre" and she brought a beach blanket along to keep from getting dirty. I don't know. You certainly can't tell a thing from the images. You can't conclude a thing about a woman playing.

How such flimsy evidence provokes the indignity, moral outrage and certainty of the ensuing post(s) is one of the enduring mysteries of GCA - or maybe just of Pat Mucci. The kindest thing I can say about Pat's outage is that it's the stuff of a junior d.a. at a grand jury. But it would never make it's way into a trial. A judge would toss it as insufficient evidence.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 03:20:53 AM by Brad Klein »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2006, 06:44:22 AM »
Tray tables up please and fasten those seat belts low and tight....

TEPaul

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2006, 07:28:59 AM »
Patrick Mucci's constant implications that he seems to know who Pine Valley was designed for and how it was designed better than George Crump and his words is just another example of some of the preposterousness that goes on continually on this website.

'ALLEGED STORY'????

He treats this discussion section like he's some courtroom defense attorney!

Preposterous!!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2006, 06:11:48 PM »

I never played St Andrews on Hastings, why is that the only course you referrence?

Since it was one of the five founding clubs of the USGA I thought it appropriate to reference in terms of historical perspectives.
[/color]

The success you mention higher handicaps have is isolated to your foursome, I caddied for hundreds of double digit handicappers there. The course was certainly not built with their success in mind.

Perhaps that's a reflection on your abilities as a caddy.

And, I didn't say that Crump designed PV to make the higher handicaps successful, only that he designed it to accomodate the higher handicap.
[/color]

You state that the fairways are so wide that "missing them is a remote possibility at best". Since we are discussing the higher handicapper, and you obviously only intend that comment to pertain to lower handicapper such as yourself I'll excuse it and move on. If you want to include that comment in this conversation as it pertains to double digit players please feel free but I don't think either of us think it will help your cause. And remember, that's what I'm here for. To help you make this point you're trying so hard to make but cannot quite get over the hump.

I got over the hump some time ago.
You just don't get it.

Wide fairways greatly benefit higher handicaps that don't hit the ball that far.  And, a 100 yard carry isn't a substantial impediment to hitting a DZ 70-80 yards wide.
[/color]

As I've said, I cannot comment on GCGC but the USGA (or at least the handicap rating folks) feel that Garden City is 5 - 10 strokes easier relative to par than Pine Valley for the average player.

That wasn't the issue.  Try to stay focused on the issue.
The issue was recovery from outside of the DZ.
I"ll take PV anytime over GCGC's 1 to 3 foot dense fescue.
At GCGC first you have to find the ball, then, advancing it is nearly impossible, hence most try to play back to the fairway.
[/color]

Seems difficult for me to imagine they are alone in that sentiment, but maybe you're right. As far as the caddy policy goes, here's what I can tell you. The caddies are very clearly instructed not to touch the golf ball. If you think they are running their program improperly you should let them know.


Why would the caddies NEED to be instructed not to touch the ball unless it was a common practice ?

No other golf course I know of gives those instructions to their caddies.

The balls are moved to provide a swing and a recovery.
[/color]

Oh my god, now that you brought Neil Armstrong into the equation I have a very clear understanding of your position on this. Obviously Pine Valley was built to accommodate the higher handicapper because if they can play golf on the moon they can play golf anywhere. Obviously the moon accommodates THE AVERAGE PLAYER, doesn't it. come on Pat, back to Earth my friend.

Pat, whether or not the club has higher handicap members has no bearing on this topic whatsoever.

Of course it does.

If a club has higher handicap players it's indicative that the golf course accomodates them.
[/color]

You state that Garden City is more penal than Pine Valley, are there any 20 handicaps members at GCGC?

That's a blatant lie.
I never stated that.
I stated that the off DZ areas at GCGC were more penal then the woods at PV.
Please, if you're going to debate the issues, don't distort or fabricate them to suit your position.
[/color]

Of course there are, it's not always about playing the course ideally suited to your game. That you discount the challenge higher handicap players face when trying to get their drive into the fairway at Pine Valley clearly illustrates your lack of understanding about players of lesser caliber than yourself.


It's a 100 yard shot.
How have I distorted that ?
Please, read my posts more carefully.
[/color]

Every successful shot, whether it be a drive into the fairway or a well placed lay-up, or a ball onto the green is a relief to the bogey player down there and that has become a large part of the charm of the place.

That's your opinion, which I don't share.
[/color]

The guy that goes down there to shoot a score will rarely come away successful, the guy that goes down there to enjoy the golf course as it is and hopefully play a handful of holes well is going to enjoy every minute of it even if he also picks up on a few holes.

Why the need to pick up ?
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2006, 12:32:10 AM »

Pat's posting here is surely one of the most absurd I have ever read on GCA. I also think it's part of the reason that so many people, when I travel, ask me, in effect, "what's with those GCA nuts?"

Brad, I think you'll find that my position is prudent, and your charge absurd.

Did everyone you met in your travels think MacWood was nuts when he postulated that Crump died at his own hand.

Categorizing contributors on GCA.com as "nuts' is an arrogant, uninformed and/or defensive statement.
[/color]

Has anyone here, including Pat Mucci, bothered to even look at the photos in question? For a major indictment, the evidence is simply wrong.

Why, because you say so ?
See my points below.
[/color]

First of all, the "evidence" starts with page 54, not 55. Second no woman is actually shown playing golf. There are photos of a single woman, obviously the same woman, seen on the 2nd tee (p. 54) and the 5th tee (p. 56), in front of the 7th green (p. 57, if you squint and look closely) and on the 8th green (p. 58) She's not playing golf. She's standing there, towel (or perhaps a scarf, but probably a towel) draped over her right shoulder, holding a club, facing a man, who is playing golf (at least on the 2nd, 7th and 8th holes, but he's not yet playing on the 5th tee). She's wearing a full-length coat, one which appears to be even heavier than the standard woman's golf garb for the era. At no point is she playing golf. At most, you can conclude she's watching him play golf. He's shown swinging three times. She's never shown playing.

Those are nice guesses, but, they're incorrect.
Her dress fits with that of her companion and is indicative of the times.

The photos are from the archives of the Western Golf Association.  And descriptions of the photos clearly state that the woman is holding HER driver.  Not in just one photo, but, in several.  She's also pictured in the middle of Hell's Half Acre, and not to the left side where a spectator would walk, but right in the middle of it.

If a photo shows a woman holding her driver, I don't think it's imprudent to conclude that she was playing the golf course.
Unless you feel that she may have been caddying for Phil Mickelson just prior to his Masters warmup.
[/color]

Maybe she's a caddie.

Sure, Caddies carry just one club, a driver, all the time.
Oh, I forgot, the pictures show the man she's with is playing with his driver.
So, it's reasonable to conclude that it's HER club, without the second source confirming same.
[/color]

Maybe she's taking a walk with him. Maybe she's his mistress and they consummated their affair in "Hell's Half Acre" and she brought a beach blanket along to keep from getting dirty. I don't know. You certainly can't tell a thing from the images. You can't conclude a thing about a woman playing.

You could if you did a little more research.
But, you didn't do that.
[/color]
She's playing golf, and those pictures and descriptions of those pictures are reasonable evidence of same.

How such flimsy evidence provokes the indignity, moral outrage and certainty of the ensuing post(s) is one of the enduring mysteries of GCA - or maybe just of Pat Mucci. The kindest thing I can say about Pat's outage is that it's the stuff of a junior d.a. at a grand jury. But it would never make it's way into a trial. A judge would toss it as insufficient evidence.

Flimsy ?
It's confirmed by other sources.
I'd call that strong evidence.
I'd call your feeble attempt to counter it ....... feeble and uninformed.
My premise had numerous components and wasn't based solely on those pictures.   However, with respect to those pictures, the evidence seems clear, she was playing golf.

You may recall that I indicated that wide fairways are accomodating to higher handicap players.
Would you deny that ?

I stated that over the years I've played with higher handicap players who shot below their handicap.
These were golfers with handicaps in the teens.
I also recounted a 7 handicap who shot 71 a year ago.
Long after the golf course had been narrowed by tree and underbrush encroachment.

In addition, I cited the categorization of the original and early membership at Pine Valley.   They weren't all championship or scratch handicap players.  Some were pure duffers.
Cornelius McGillicuddy, aka, Connie Mack was described as a woeful golfer.

Two items need to be considered.

# 1.  

The appeal to prospective members of Pine Valley, prior to course construction was to build a golf course that was easily accessible to the Philadelphia crowd that was maximally playable throughout the winter.

Pine Valley sat right on the Atlantic City Line of the Philadelphia and Reading Railroad.   A tremendous convenience for the Philadelphia crowd.

Pine Valley needed 200 to 250 members to make it a financially sound club.  Do you think there were 200 to 250 championship or scratch golfers in the Philadelphia area in 1913 ?

# 2

Crump consulted with most, if not all, of the great architects of his day.

H.S. Colt, A.W. Tillinghast, Hugh Wilson, George Thomas, Walter Travis and many others.

Do you think these men advised him to build a golf course solely for the scratch golfer WITHOUT ACCOMODATING the higher handicap player ?

Bernard Darwin stated that the club was populated by poorer golfers from the Philadelphia area.  In one statement he declares that golfers who normally shot 120 were very happy when they shot 115.

Seperate sets of forward tee boxes can be found in the early aerials, indicating a concession to the higher handicap golfer.
If he designed Pine Valley STRICTLY for championship play, the scratch handicap, why create forward tees ?
That certainly wouldn't be a design technique meant to challenge the best players of the day.

When you view the component pieces as a whole, the only prudent conclusion you can arrive at is that Crump designed Pine Valley to accomodate golfers with handicaps greater then scratch.  That he designed and built the golf course to accomodate golfers of less ability, the higher handicaps ( 5-10-15-20)

Women Playing the golf course.
Wide fairways
Forward tees.
Caliber of Membership.  
Early photos with few trees in the play zones
Great architectural advisors
Winter course easily accessable to Philadelphia.
Need for 200-250 Members

= accomodation
[/color]



Jim Nugent

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2006, 02:07:15 AM »
I'm curious how a course with a slope of 153 and 155 can be considered "accomodating" to higher handicap golfers.  

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2006, 07:00:40 AM »
Pat, what in the world are you talking about? Shackelford's book clearly credits those photos to the USGA and to the American Golfer Magazine, not to the Western Golf Association (whch is separately credited with other photos in the book). The captions say nothing about a woman playing golf or holding her driver. Perhaps you are referring to photos printed and published elsewhere. If so, then say so. But the references you make to those photos do not bear out your conclusion. You are drawing exaggerated conclusions, and then you fulminate in terms that resemble Luther's theses posted on the church door, point-by-point making thunderous indictments and accusations about those who disagree with you. I think your raw nerves need a little insulation.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 07:02:58 AM by Brad Klein »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2006, 08:04:01 AM »
Brad Klein,

They may be credited to the USGA but they were discovered in the Archives of the Western Golf Association in the mid-90's.

Descriptions that identify the photos refer to the tees and the characters appearing in them.

I stand by my position.

Yours has no supporting merit.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2006, 03:32:17 PM »
I'm curious how a course with a slope of 153 and 155 can be considered "accomodating" to higher handicap golfers.  

Jim,

Isn't it obvious, it's because Patrick the Mucci says so.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2006, 03:38:05 PM »
Pat,

I think it's a shame that you have such disregard for any and all other posters on this board. It is now clear to me that you come on here not for the discussion, but rather for the audience to lecture to. You have as active a mind as any other on here, perhaps your views would be better spelled out in the "ON MY OPINION" page. After all, you don't actually ask questions you're looking for an answer to, you ask the questions you want to tell us the answers to.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2006, 03:54:34 PM »
JES II,

I've enumerated numerous points to support my position.

Those points lead a prudent man to reach the conclusion that Crump designed PV to accomodate the higher handicap golfer in addition to challenging the championship player.

That your ego or reasoning doesn't permit you to admit the validity of the evidence leading to that prudent conclusion is your shortcoming not mine.

I don't need you to whine about my posts, my points of view, my discourse or my methods of discussion.

Or, are all those who disagree with you to be chastised, directly or indirectly because they support positions contrary to your own.

The merits of your position, together with your supporting evidence, not your whining, should determine the quality and outcome of the debate.

Stick to the issues at hand and save the lectures for your kids.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2006, 07:58:32 AM »
You know, it's funny Pat, in the couple of years I've been reading and posting here I cannot recall one instance in which you conceeded a point. You are the one guilty of chastising all positions contrary to your own. Your typical method is to make your point, when that is proven wrong you try to change the subject, and when called on that you stop posting on a particular thread. I am very happy to recognize credit when due and have done so numerous times, but on this topic you have come up short. You list a series of points that I'll go through one by one and they do not lead a prudent man to reach any conclusion. That is not to say they could not lead you to your pre-concieved conclusion however.  :-


1) *Women Playing the golf course. - Who cares, I spoke of a woman playing the course in the last 10 years. The course was not designed to accommodate her so how can you say any different based on a picture from so many years ago with no ancillary evidence.

2) Wide fairways - I've laid out my position on this, we disagree, do me this one favor though and if you can give an answer that holds water I'll concede the full point; name one hole at Pine Valley that fully accommodates a typical 18 handicap player.

3) Forward tees. - I don't care if the players tee off at the beginning of the fairway, the course is so unforgiving that clearing the initial hazards are only part of the issue.

4) Caliber of Membership. - Not sure what you mean, but if you're driving to the diversity of handicaps then I'll reiterate, this has nothing to do with Crump's intentions. Does Porsche only sell cars to race car drivers?

5) Early photos with few trees in the play zones - This does not change the fact that those same areas were built out as extreme hazards which should be avoided at all costs. I agree now (and if you read clearly, always have) that the trees in and around the bunkers should be removed. My contention that this would not change how you plan out a hole from the tee has not changed though.

6) Great architectural advisors - Do you have some sort of proof that any one of them advised Crump to build this course with accommodations built in for the higher handicapper? If so that would be quite helpful to your position, now is as good a time as any to reveal it. If not, then it's just another baseless position representing the straws you're grasping at.

7) Winter course easily accessable to Philadelphia. -  ??? ??? ???

8 ) Need for 200-250 Members - Porsche needs to sell cars as well. Show me one hole that supports your position and we'll analyze that hole.

= accomodation - or maybe not.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2006, 07:59:04 AM by JES II »

Dave Bourgeois

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2006, 08:54:45 AM »
I haven't played PV but have some questions.

Are the greens accommodating to a higher handicap player? (I.e. not lots of slope, forgiving areas to recover from if missed, etc.)

Are the greenside bunkers simple to get out of? (not high lips, not terribly deep)

How sandy are the waste areas like HHA? (is it fine sand, or packed, etc.)


This discussion has centered on the fairways being wide, and the LZs being ample but that is only part of the equation.  To me it doesn’t seem trivial to get to those areas for the higher handicap player (especially one from the 20s-30s with non-forgiving equipment and balls).  What about the rest of the course, does it accommodate the novice?  With a slope of 153 it sure wouldn't seem that way.



Jim Nugent

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2006, 10:01:10 AM »
Dave -- 155 is the highest slope rating a course can get.  PV's slope of 153 (regular tees) to 155 (back tees) shows the course is extremely hard for higher handicap golfers.  The exact opposite of what Patrick is claiming.  

Just for reference, here is what the USGA says about Slope:

"Slope Rating®
the USGA mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty for the bogey golfer compared to the Course Rating. Slope Rating is computed from the difference between the bogey rating and the Course Rating. The lowest Slope Rating is 55 and the highest is 155."

TEPaul

Re:What do they tell you about the golf course ?
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2006, 10:15:43 AM »
"I haven't played PV but have some questions.
Are the greens accommodating to a higher handicap player? (I.e. not lots of slope, forgiving areas to recover from if missed, etc.)
Are the greenside bunkers simple to get out of? (not high lips, not terribly deep)
How sandy are the waste areas like HHA? (is it fine sand, or packed, etc.)"

DaveB;

Let me put it this way----I doubt there has ever been a golf course in the entire history of golf course architecture that was intended to be LESS accommodating to the high handicap golfer than Pine Valley. One could even truthfully say that fact alone was a significant aspect of its initial fame.

Regarding the width of many of PVGC's fairways there is something you should know. Back in the day PVGC was built most all fairways of American courses were about 50-60 yards wide. Some of PVGC's fairways are that wide and the reason is because PV is one of the view courses in America whose fairways have never been narrowed.

PVGC never had grass rough per se, just fairway area and then sandy waste. For the last few decades PV has had narrow bands of rough on either side of the fairways not to narrow the fairways but simply to turn the mowers on.

Again, PV never narrowed its fairways until the last few years when the right side of #9 and #18 were slightly narrowed with additional bunkering.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2006, 10:34:45 AM by TEPaul »