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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2006, 05:12:55 PM »
George,

My initial premise was that he was getting needy...I think his use of the word "hopefully" in parenthesis no less nails it.  Then he goes on to say that his existing courses are starting to suffer because his new stuff is so good.  He has it bassackwards...Quail Creek gets better everyday because it was done by a great architect, I even catch myself wanting to play it now because of Doak's accolades when I had zero interest three years ago.


You are comparing two separate items that have indirect influence upon one another.

So be it

but I suspect he is hardly needy right now.  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Kavanaugh

Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2006, 05:20:42 PM »
Michael,

Not to speak for Golfweek...but..no way did any rater think when giving out a score..."Doak is gonna have two courses on the modern list this year..with Jim Engh having four..no way can Doak have three."  Nonsense.

Kelly Blake Moran must not be listed because of he uses three names...and three name architects remind people of serial killers.  If he would just go with K.B. Moran his next course would be a lock.

The more I think about Doak's comments the bizarre they become...I gotta go drink before I do any more damage.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 05:21:19 PM by John Kavanaugh »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2006, 05:36:58 PM »
Jordan,  I have mixed emotions about your thread.  My first reaction is to love it, not because of the substance but because it is so off the wall that you have Barney talking to himself.  He is finally experiencing the reaction that he has brought to so many others over the years.

Turning to the substance of your statement, it would be easy to dismiss it as a naive statement by a young man.  If we are to act as critics, and really that is all we are doing here, then we cannot blindly accept the views of anyone.  Thus your suggestion that the rankings essentially decide what is good and bad in gca is so far from accurate that it reduces the credibility of anything else you might say on any gca related topic.  If you need examples any of the experienced members of this board will be happy to provide them.  Critical analysis supported by well reasoned arguments and relevant facts will allow you to stand your own ground in discussing architecture or any other topic. But blind reliance on the opinions of anonymous others will not. If you want to engage serious (and sometimes self important) students of any discipline you have to meet them on their own terms.  Please don't take this as a lecture from an "old guy" trying to discourage you.  Instead view it as an attempt to help you achieve your potential by someone who is impressed by your interest and your willingness to particpate in what can be an intimidating group.  You will only improve your analytical abilities if we hold you to the same standards as everyone else, regardless of age or maturity level (and the two are often incongruent).  That's what I intend to do.

By the way, I agree that most architects would prefer that their courses be well liked and therefore highly ranked, both for reasons of ego and because they are likely to benefit financially.  The question is, what will they do to achieve this goal?  The true artist will design the best course he can and hope it is well received.  Altering his vision to anticipate and blunt criticism will not be part of his modus operandi.  This is the point that Barney was making (I think).

I don't believe there is any evidence that Tom Doak has compromised his standards to achieve ratings.  I think Barney is way off base.  Tom's remarks were more likely a reflection of his experience in both running and reacting to magazine ratings and were an attempt to explain movements within the system.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2006, 05:51:51 PM »
Trails is 17 on the GW list, I believe

Oh..so that makes me wrong..

I like my courses built and my women natural...
John, from reading your posts over the last few weeks, that seems to sum up your attitude perfectly.

OK, I'll get the shovel. Let's go dig up Robert Trent Jones... ;)
Next!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2006, 07:25:59 PM »
I've never played a better course than Pacific Dunes.  I agree with Mr. Lynch.  Bandon Trails is really nice, but for me Pacific is IT.

The next is directed to Jordan Wall.  Jordan, I feel the tone of your comments to John Kavanaugh is quite condescending.  I think you are being disrespectful to a fellow member of the group.  Of course, it is hypocritical of me to criticize you for condescension when I could be accused of the same thing.  But I think you are baiting him.

If Tom uses the word "hopeful" to describe his feelings about having his designs ranked in the top 100, perhaps he is just being honest, and not putting a damn filter on every public statement he makes.  The world is full of politically correct BS.  Every architect wants to be recognized and praised.  Why not?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2006, 09:02:10 PM »
Well Eamon Lynch has become a friend, after he watched me work for a week in New Zealand and Australia ... so I will take his praise with a grain of salt.  I would also disagree with his harsh take on Bandon Trails, but then Bill Coore is a friend of mine, too, so you can take that the same way.

John, I don't think I'm too needy, although I will cop to being very ambitious and wanting to keep building more great courses.  I do think it's a function of the rankings that there is something of an artificial ceiling for each individual architect ... not that any one voter does it consciously, it just works out that way is all I was trying to say.  I've watched these lists for 25 years and that is just the way they seem to work.

BTW, I hope that Ballyneal and Sebonack and Stone Eagle get ranked for my clients' sake, just like I'm bummed that Stonewall is out because they have always been one of our most enthusiastic clients.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2006, 09:10:20 PM »
Tom,

Thanks...Do you believe that Pacific Dunes is better than Pebble..

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2006, 09:18:33 PM »
This all goes to prove my point that the "rankings" are a juvenile, ridiculous, waste of time.

There may be many reasons why rankings exist, but they are all shallow.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jordan Wall

Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2006, 09:43:56 PM »
Jordan,  I have mixed emotions about your thread.  My first reaction is to love it, not because of the substance but because it is so off the wall that you have Barney talking to himself.  He is finally experiencing the reaction that he has brought to so many others over the years.

Turning to the substance of your statement, it would be easy to dismiss it as a naive statement by a young man.  If we are to act as critics, and really that is all we are doing here, then we cannot blindly accept the views of anyone.  Thus your suggestion that the rankings essentially decide what is good and bad in gca is so far from accurate that it reduces the credibility of anything else you might say on any gca related topic.  If you need examples any of the experienced members of this board will be happy to provide them.  Critical analysis supported by well reasoned arguments and relevant facts will allow you to stand your own ground in discussing architecture or any other topic. But blind reliance on the opinions of anonymous others will not. If you want to engage serious (and sometimes self important) students of any discipline you have to meet them on their own terms.  Please don't take this as a lecture from an "old guy" trying to discourage you.  Instead view it as an attempt to help you achieve your potential by someone who is impressed by your interest and your willingness to particpate in what can be an intimidating group.  You will only improve your analytical abilities if we hold you to the same standards as everyone else, regardless of age or maturity level (and the two are often incongruent).  That's what I intend to do.

By the way, I agree that most architects would prefer that their courses be well liked and therefore highly ranked, both for reasons of ego and because they are likely to benefit financially.  The question is, what will they do to achieve this goal?  The true artist will design the best course he can and hope it is well received.  Altering his vision to anticipate and blunt criticism will not be part of his modus operandi.  This is the point that Barney was making (I think).

I don't believe there is any evidence that Tom Doak has compromised his standards to achieve ratings.  I think Barney is way off base.  Tom's remarks were more likely a reflection of his experience in both running and reacting to magazine ratings and were an attempt to explain movements within the system.

I did not mean to accept courses and say they are good due to rankings.

What I was really trying to say that any course an architect designs should be a course everyone enjoys and likes to play, and that just includes critics.

Any course in rankings is usually gonna be good, so an architect should design his course and be proud if it gets into the top 100.

The rankings are simply praises for the best courses in the world.

That is all I was trying to say.

John K.,

If you truly do not believe I am 16 then IM and I will tell you several people you can talk to.  I wasnt trying to be rude either, I just did not agree with the very first statement you made and my point came out a little bit funny.  When you say Doak is the neediest architect I almost felt it was disrespectful because his work is highly regarded and I have never heard him ask for praise.  I respect your opinion that BT should be higher then PD, but I was just trying to say what I said above.  It just didnt come across quite right.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 09:52:01 PM by Jordan Wall »

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2006, 09:52:48 PM »
Well played as far as I can see Jordan, as of your previous post anyways  :)
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

John Kavanaugh

Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2006, 09:55:31 PM »
Jordan...I consider you a friend and hope you never stop sharing your opinion...with friends like me..

Duane Sharpe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2006, 10:06:24 PM »
Four of my closest friends ( all top superintendents in Alberta) recently played all three courses at Bandon and I spoke with all of them.

Majority ruled that Pacific was their favorite with Dunes and close second.
I was interesting to hear their opinion though as they are all top superintendents and good golfers.
Great Job Tom
I can't wait to  play it some day.
Sharpee

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2006, 01:20:55 AM »
Jordan, I probably overreacted.  Thanks for responding.  Everything is fine and mellow here.

Another JK

Jim Nugent

Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2006, 03:23:52 AM »
By that logic, Michael Jordan would be the neediest athlete ever, since he received the most praise...

Not to mention Tiger Woods, that poor, groveling sycophant.  We must take pity on him...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2006, 10:51:06 AM »
John:

The more I think about it, the more I think you are right and I am needy, or why else would I spend my time here?  But then much the same thing goes for everyone on the DG.

Is Pacific Dunes better than Pebble Beach?  Depends on for whom.  The fact that you can even ask that question is all the praise I really need.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wow - High Praise Indeed
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2006, 12:09:36 PM »
John:

Is Pacific Dunes better than Pebble Beach?  Depends on for whom.  The fact that you can even ask that question is all the praise I really need.

Tom,
I would post that this was a great response, but that would just make me another enabler of your 'condition'.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 12:10:54 PM by Anthony Butler »
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